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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:08 pm 
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We need to keep in mind, skinks are small compared to Saurus, not compared to humans.  Advanced weaponry tends to get more light weight.  I can totally see skinks carrying heavy weapons.  

On the other hand, I have no problem with a small number of specialized "shooty spawn name here" Saurus that carry heavy weapons.

I lean a bit toward Skinks, but really don't care that much one way or the other, so I'll let you 2 work this one out, but no fighting. :)

As for the big smashy inf.  I like Vermis suggestion.  They will just be "smashy spawn name here" Saurus

"Sotek Saurus" as an example (already forgot what Sotek does, sorry).

I think we may be able to use the Human Dropship from DRM for something as well


This looks very Xlan!  Just PLEASE do not make in a VITAL part of the list.  It's awesome, but for reasons of cost, I may never buy it! :blush:

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:15 pm 
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I'd rather keep the Mechs separate from the infantry


I'm sorry for my ignorance, but I've forgotten, do Dreads count as Inf or AV?  If AV, you may have a point, If Inf., then the mixed fire wouldn't be a problem if Krox were Dreads.  This would also eliminate the teleport problem, it's just big infantry.  

Making the Krox a Dread doesn't have to mean it's super shooty.  Just stat it up as a tougher infantry.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 8:19 pm 
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Our first bite!

A response from Dwarf Supreme:

I don't have any problems with a smaller vehicle being DC 2 or 3. As far as I'm concerned, DC shouldn't be solely a function of how big something is. The sturdiness of its construction should be a factor as well.





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nealhunt
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:33 pm 
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Is there a consolidated list of proposed stats and possibly a preliminary army structure?

I'm interested in this, for an excuse to buy DRM stuff if nothing else, but I'm behind on the discussion and having a hard time keeping stuff straight without a reference point.

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 9:40 pm 
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Right now, we're still very much in the discussion phase.  There are several different versions of proposed stats for various units.  I'll try to pull them together and send them to you along with a list of their WFB equivilent and suggested proxy.

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:00 pm 
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Firstly, thanks to Ilushia for the list of stats. ?But... I don't know if a lot of minis from the kray and andy ranges should be included. ?I don't mind a bit of influence from them, but should they dictate what a 40K slann list might have?

E.g. I'm warming to the idea of velites, at least, but I'm still iffy on them. ?Mostly because I'm still a bit iffy on chaos dreads, but also because they look a tad too much like an SM dread, and I don't know how different their role would be to that of the 'carnosaur' (vorace). ?Depends if the carnosaur will be a WE or just a big AV.

And yup - dreads are AV.

All this is making me consider kroxigor as infantry creatures. ?Which in turn is making me consider conceding defeat and going with the 'krox as heavy saurus infantry' idea.

(Personally I'd like them as 'larger' infantry minis - ?a little like nid lictors or warriors - than as the regular '5 to a stand' infantry. ?Mostly to differentiate between them and saurus. ?But for that I think I'd need to brainwash Doug at DRM, or get busy myself. ?Both options are almost equally likely.)

So... to sort out the slightly confused ideas (AFAICS) about saurus - what types are there?

'Krox' saurus: there seem to be two trains of thought here - the 'smashy' CC specialists, or tough troops that lug heavy weapons around. ?Or are they both?

'Shooty' saurus: or basic saurus. ?Lower CC and higher FF than the above. ?With heavy weapons, or without?

Jumppack saurus: an idea for 'smashy' saurus. ?But does that make them kroxigors? ?I'm kind of relenting on the infantry/walker thing - it's not unreasonable - but the name 'kroxigor' associated with jumppacks is almost completely alien to me.
I know no-one's said that the jumppack troops are krox, but I'm just trying to get it straight in my head, and possibly nip it in the bud. :;):

Background: if the smashy saurus are jumppack troops, it might also be appropriate to name them after Tepok (god of magic and air).

Another 'should it be?': the pax dropship. ?Alongside the vertex, or instead of the vertex?

What else? ?I don't mind if skinks aren't scouts. ?And FB saurus champions aren't 'frightened ones' (:p), they're Oldbloods (lords) and Scar-Veterans (heroes).

Doing well in stepping back, aren't I?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:05 pm 
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(Personally I'd like them as 'larger' infantry minis -  a little like nid lictors or warriors - than as the regular '5 to a stand' infantry.  Mostly to differentiate between them and saurus.  But for that I think I'd need to brainwash Doug at DRM, or get busy myself.  Both options are almost equally likely.)


What's wrong with Warmaster Krox to fill this role?

'frightened ones'

Did I miss something?

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 10:16 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 19 2006,22:05)
QUOTE
What's wrong with Warmaster Krox to fill this role?

They're nekkid. :blush:

Seriously, though.  They have good saves in FB & WM, but I don't know if simple 'scaly skin' would be as good when translated into a universe with powered armour and laser cannons yadda yadda.

I'm not saying the WM minis can't be used as proxies, but I'd prefer if they looked the business, and made some concession to body armour.  And if they have to haul heavy guns, too... just thinking about that kind of conversion makes me weary.

Frightened ones - scared ones.  Scarred ones?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 4:38 am 
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But... I don't know if a lot of minis from the kray and andy ranges should be included...should they dictate what a 40K slann list might have?


Of course they shouldn't dictate, and while Ilushias work is great, the DRM minis are just proxies. ?Stats don't HAVE to match them. ?We can go either way.

If you're wavering on vergers and velites, I suggest we don't use them. ?I've said before, I don't think they fit.

'Krox' saurus or 'Shooty' saurus

I think we should have multiple kinds of Saurus
Sotek Saurus= CC troops
Tepok Saurus= jump pack troops
Chotec Saurus= Heavy weapon troops

is making me consider conceding defeat and going with the 'krox as heavy saurus infantry' idea

NO, there is no reason to give up Krox as Chaos Dreads. ?Krox as inf is kind of redundant. ?

Maybe having AV in infantry formations is a tactical weakness, but if that is what you want to do, there is nothing to stop you. ?Maybe you can make it work fine! ?

If there were a valid reason, or it just plain sucked, I'd try to reason with you, but there's nothing wrong with it. ?Most armies have something like a Dread!

I say we make the Krox a Dread-like unit and in the army list, make it one of your main choices. ?Then, if Vermis wants to put them in with his Skink formation, that's his choice. ?If Ilushia wants to put them in a formation by themselves, that's fine too.

No Epic army list is set up so that you can only use it one way. ?One way may be tactically stronger, but that doesn't mean that's the way YOU have to do it.

Epic is versitile, keep this in mind!

name 'kroxigor' associated with jumppacks is almost completely alien to me

Not a problem, no Jump Krox! ?Saurus can do it just fine.

Another 'should it be?': the pax dropship. ?Alongside the vertex, or instead of the vertex?

Let's make this an either/or. ?If you want to invest in the drop ship, that's cool, but I can use the Vertex if I don't want to dish out the cash (we don't want to turn into GW after all! ?:p ).

I don't mind if skinks aren't scouts
I thinks "scout" fits them very well, but may have to be sacrificed to the gods of game balance.

Doing well in stepping back, aren't I?

I thought that was not needed anyway. ?Nothing gets accomplished by taking a hands off approach.




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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:05 am 
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More input, this time from nealhunt

Hmm... I would tend to shy away from making smaller vehicles multi-DC.  I know it's not all about size, as Dwarf Supreme noted, but it just doesn't feel right when you have a little dinky thing on the board that's dramatically tougher than other stuff with similar visual impact.

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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:07 am 
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and this one from our gracious benefactor, CyberShadow

I also think that even GW SHTs are too small in comparrison. Even throwing out the Land Raider, some of the SHTs out there are not much bigger than standard AFVs.





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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 5:36 am 
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Some notes about what I've put together: The idea for using the DRM minis as proxies works wonderfully. The stats I gave them are partly because of what the minis look like and partly because I thought it'd fit well with what they have from a style perspective. Direct translation of a fantasy army to a sci-fi army never seems to end well. Even the Orks got a lot more ranged weaponry when going from fantasy to sci-fi! I see no reason why the lizardmen should be any different really. Yes, this means that Saurus have heavy weapons. Is that so wrong? Currently there IS a Chaos Dread style unit in the army for the Krox: The Kroxigore Assault Machine, it's better in CC and worse in FF, and it moves faster then a Chaos Dread. Better armor save, no fearless. Worse at long range since it only has AP 4+/AT6+. Functionally it fills exactly the same role, a face-smashing vehicle unit.

Making new kinds of Saurus would be fine.... Here's an odd question: Do we want CC saurus who AREN'T jump-pack troops? With the current way the list is set up the only way you'd get said saurus into CC is by teleporting them around... And usually I'm expecting you to want the teleporter to move things like shooty formations into attack positions instead.

I really didn't try to make the models explicitely create stats, just style. And the models, IMHO, work wonderfully for sci-fi lizardmen. No they won't match up to their fantasy counter-parts in terms of direct fluff, but should they? The Orks don't. The Eldar certainly do not look like Warmaster Elves, do they?  The Sci-Fi counterparts to the Fantasy races almost never are a direct translation, infact usally they're drastically different in many ways.

I could make the Slann be something like the Eldar Farseer, be his own stand burried inside a big unit of guards. Make him Infantry and Skimmer or something like that... Might work better. I have no reason not to go with Scarred Ones on the field as well. Perhaps giving the option to field either in with the Saurus Guards? A strong leader needs good bodyguards after all since he's likely to be prime target #1.

Neal: I'll work on some kind of a force organization style thing sometime soonish. Once we hammer out some more details on these guys' other stuff... I really would like to avoid making the Sauruses be melee-heavy by default. Even Orks get ranged weapons in with their Boyz! I wouldn't be opposed to making Sauruses GOOD in close combat,  but I don't want them to be Close Combat specific with no ranged weaponry.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 6:02 am 
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IMHO most DRM minis work perfectly (or even better) and some don't. ?

I'm flexible, I don't think we HAVE to stat units based on their proxy, but if it works, really don't care if we end up doing that.

Stat work is way over my head anyway. ?Honestly, I just don't have the know how.

I don't think there is alot AV wise from the FB line that has been missed, but I think there may be AV holes in the army that need to be filled. ?Maybe I'm wrong. ?It's alot of info and I'm still sifting through it.

I would like for someone to "throw me a bone" on the cavalry. ?Even if it's a bottom of the list, nobody uses it but me, kind of thing.

From previous posts, I think more than one person wanted the Skimmer Slann mage priest. ? I think the skimmer idea works for this army and should be included as a stand alone unit.

Personally, I hate the fat toad and would like a secondary leader Slann added that I can use. ?

The diff. between Supreme Commander and Commander maybe.

I do think we need multiple types of Saurus, but wouldn't really NEED CC Saurus who aren't jump pack troops. ?Just need to make sure more JP troops were available. ?

CC Saurus foot sloggers may be an option that can go away. ?Will be able to tell better when the army list fleshes out a bit more.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 7:41 am 
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Soo.... Here's some more stuff for the list, I'll work on an actual list with unit sizes and suchlike sometime soon if you people want. I don't think there's anything all that over-powered in the list right now.

Saurus Bikers

Move: 20cm. Type: Infantry. Armor: 4+. CC: 4+. FF: 5+.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Light MG 30cm AP5+ -
Swords/Axes CC Assault EA +1

Notes: Mounted, Infiltrators.


Saurus Drop Troopers

Move: 30cm Type: Infantry Armor: 4+ CC: 3+ FF: 6+

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Sun Pistols (15cm) Small Arms -
Spiked Maces CC Assault -

Notes: Jump Pack.


Drop Ship

Move: Bomber. Type: War Engine/Flier. Armor: 4+. CC: 6+. FF: 4+

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Point Defenses 15cm 4xAA4+ -
2xMachine Guns 15cm AP5+/AA5+ FxF.
Missile System 30cm 2xAT4+ FxF.

DC 4. Critical: Vehicle's control-planes are damaged, causing it to crash destroying the ship and killing all onboard.

Notes: Reinforced Armor, Transport (May carry up to 6 of the following: Saurus Drop Troopers, Saurus Guards, Saurus.)


Terradon Transports (Vertex)

Move: Bomber. Type: Flier. Armor: 4+. CC: 6+. FF: 5+.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Point Defenses 15cm 2xAA4+ -
Light Bombs 15cm BP1 -

Notes: Transport (may carry up to 2 Saurus Drop Trooper stands.)


Terradon Attack Craft (X Bombers)

Move: Fighter/Bomber. Type: Flier. Armor: 5+. CC: -. FF -.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
2x Ion Cannons 30cm AP4+/AT4+/AA5+ FxF
Heavy Bombs 15cm BP2 Disrupt

Notes: None.


Skink Mage (Ketzali Priest)

Move: N/A. Type: N/A. Armor: N/A. CC: N/A. FF: N/A.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Warp Blast (15cm) Small Arms MW, EA +1

Notes: Commander, Leader, Invulnerable Save, Character.


Scarred One (Karrok II)

Move: N/A. Type: N/A. Armor: N/A. CC: N/A. FF: N/A.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Power Saber CC Assault EA+1, MW.

Notes: Supreme Commander, Invulnerable Save, Character.


Slanni Mage-Priest. (Alternative)

Move: 15cm. Type: Infantry. Armor: 4+. CC: 6+. FF: 4+.

Weapons Range Firepower Notes
Warp Blast (15cm) Small Arms MW, EA +1
Lightning Strike 45cm MW4+ -

Notes: Invulnerable Save, Supreme Commander, Skimmer.


There you go. Independent Slann, an alternative Supreme Commander, a leader for the Skinks, some cavalry, two kinds of transport ships, some assault sauri, and even a normal aircraft formation!
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Thu Jul 20, 2006 2:46 pm 
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GREAT WORK, Ilushia!  This is fantastic.

Those Drop Troops are awesome!

The drop ship, even better (if possible)!

I like that you're thinking "Terradon" for both aircraft.  We need to update the name to the 41st millenium, but should still be clear the name derived from Terradon.
Terrad and Terradax just off the top of my head, I'm sure there are much better options, but these convey what I'm getting at

Slann mage priest looks good.  I'm sure the 4+ armor save can be justified w/ defense screens in the skimmer.  This will satisfy those people that like that fat toad look. :p

Just a few small tweaks:

Terradon Transports (Vertex)

The Vertex is HUGE.  It should prob. be WE.  Look at the last 2 pics
here


Skink Mage (Ketzali Priest)
This should be Slann mage or Slann priest (as opposed to mage priest)
Very minor

Saurus Bikers
Sorry about this, when I said cavalry, I meant real, beast mounted cavalry.  May not require any changes just description, I don't know.

Personally, I'd like to see the Kijakk recon skimmer and Kurall attack skimmer worked into the list.  Prob. as Xlan vehicles rather than OO vehicles.  

Anybody with me on this?

Just out of curiosity, is it better to go with just the combined fighter/bomber, or should there be a seperate fighter and a bomber?  DRM offers so many options.
Varkator, Vira, Arkator bomber, Arkitan fighter


Again, great work, things are really starting to take shape!

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