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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
orangesm
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:09 pm 
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I think the name should be "Servents of the Old Ones"  because this is what the army is about and it includes more than just Lizardmen - although they are the core of the army.  Jackero pilot the Old One vehicles because they are the only ones that can still understand how to operate them.  Primitives may be included and act as garrison forces.

I agree the army should be in the middle and capable of fighting a running battle but not capable of the extreme changes in direction.

WE are going to be the Old One vehicles I am guessing.  We may also want to make any formation of or very large WE have a Slann on it - they are not going to let the Jackero control these without being overseen by one of the Old Ones' direct servents.




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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:16 pm 
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QUOTE
could they be completely machine rather than skinks in suits?

Only if you're not being pushed away from the creature concept against your will.   I'd prefer skink-piloted walkers myself, but I don't think it makes much difference!


If we had a larger proxy, I wouldn't mind having actual Krox in the walker.  You yourself mentioned it may seem a bit silly to have a Dread-like unit operated by a little skink.

Coatl and Terradons: I think we're getting crossed wires here

Could be.  Here is what I was thinking.  Just as one mode of using these assault Saurus (Skinks just don't seem to fit this roll).  They fly up to the assault point in a skimmer (giving them extra protection) and quite literally JUMP INTO COMBAT with support from the skimmer.  If they need to retreat or move on to the next assault, they have their jump packs.  I don't know if this will work out, but it's what I had in mind.  I'm not stuck on it and some other mechanic might be fine.

Plus, I am really not familiar with what the Coatl is.

Something simple, like 'each formation removes an extra blast marker when regrouping, exactly as if a Leader was present.  If the formation contains a Leader, the effect is cumulative'.
Or something a bit more complicated

This looks good.  Gives them some help, but without being so powerful as to draw alot of complaints.


I'm still hooked on your pyramid WE idea.  I think we need to explore that further.

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:29 pm 
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Personally, I had ideas about a force reasonably good at assaulting, backed up by short-medium range fire and a limited number of big guns.
Con?  Your thoughts?


I don't know, as designated protectors of the universe, they really need to be able to wage war in all forms.  They need to be one of the most versatile forces in the game.  Not the best at anything, but good at everything.

Look at the success of the Imperium.  It requires both the SM & the IG (not to mention others) to succeed.

"Servents of the Old Ones"

While this has a nice ring to it, might be better suited to one clan/nation which incorporates lizards, primitives, and Jakero.  It therefore might be better as an army name than as a race name.  

I'm not bent on change, just making sure we're nice an fluffy.  If people don't feel they need to be the "Slanni" then that's no prob.  

Although, I was looking at GW's name generator for the Lizardmen and "Xlan" came up.  That's pretty cool and could just be the diff. between the way some human pronounced it and the way it should be.

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:34 pm 
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Consectari: If we had a larger proxy, I wouldn't mind having actual Krox in the walker. ?You yourself mentioned it may seem a bit silly to have a Dread-like unit operated by a little skink.

Ah... I only meant it might be a little odd to have a skink wearing terminator-sized armour (though that was more of a knee-jerk reaction than anything else). :;): ?I'm fine with a skink piloting something.

Consectari: Plus, I am really not familiar with what the Coatl is.

The coatl as in a suggestion for the list, or a coatl in general?

The former - basically a transport aircraft/skimmer/dropship.
The latter - mythical mesoamerican creature. ?A feathered and winged serpent. ?Though after a quick glance at a few online articles I have the feeling it just means 'snake' and the feathered attribute belongs to the god Quetzalcoatl (namesake of the quetzal and quetzalcoatlus).

Pyramid: me too. :;):

Xlan: I like it.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:38 pm 
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Vermis: 'each formation removes an extra blast marker when regrouping, exactly as if a Leader was present. ?If the formation contains a Leader, the effect is cumulative'?



I was reading some pages from the GW site both for WFB & Warmaster. ? It just confirmed what you said about Saurus and Oldbloods. ?

They don't get any better with age because they are born with all the ability they need. ?

It also mentioned Saurus making coordinated attacks without communicating with each other. ?

It's as if formations didn't need a leader to function as if they had one. ?

Your new rule fits perfectly with the fluff!




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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:47 pm 
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I really didn't know what Coatl was in general.  I thought you were refering to some WFB unit I wasn't familiar with.  :laugh:

As snake or flying snake either one, I think it describes a good fast attack skimmer rather than a transport.

About the Krox walker,  I don't know how you feel about using pieces from board games as proxies, but the Risk 2210 game has a 20mm tall walker shaped about like a Chaos Dread.  It would need more de-flashing than most but not bad overall.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 6:57 pm 
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Please. Please do not replicate Spirit Stones in this list. I  have issues with it, which I've stated other places. I really really dislike that 'Leader from nowhere!' feel of it. ATSKNF isn't too bad, since it largely just offsets the Marines' small formation-sizes. Otherwise they'd be completely unplayable. But the 'Leader in every formation alll the time and impossible to get rid of' bugs me, a lot. Leader should come from specific sources. How about borrowing the idea that some folks had put forth to replace Spirit Stones? Make the Slanni have Leader and let them lend Leader to any other formation in the army (To represent that formation getting direct orders from t he Slanni and having it reinforce their morale). That way if you kill the Slanni, they can't do it any more! It's got a clear source, and it can be gotten rid of.

I'd imagine they'd have some very specialized formations. Essentially they can do everything,  but not all at once. Formation A being a purpose-built artillery unit. Formation B being short-range fire fighting scouts. Formation C being fast-moving skimmers. Etc. So you have a source of everything you need in the list, without making any single formation be a 'does everything' solution. That's my feeling. I could see two different versions of the armored-walker bit for the lighter vehicles. One of the Verger and the other of the other walker, with the mace (Is that an alternate Verger? I can never remember). Where the prior is a long-range fire-support platform, and the later is a close combat face-smashing thing. Similar across the board. But instead of allowing the two to be mixed, like Dreadnoughts can with their choices, make them distinct units. So you field a formation of one OR the other, not a combination of both. The artillery pieces should likely be fairly slow moving too. I'll give some thought at what kind of stats I might give things... The last question is: How advanced do you want them to be outside of the Slann Tech? Obviously the Slann Tech is going to be at least as good as the Eldar, likely comperable with the Necrons (I may actually steal a few of the older Necron ideas for some of it...) but how advanced are their non-old-one items? WHat kind of weapons would you expect them to use?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:14 pm 
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without making any single formation be a 'does everything' solution


Just to clarify, I didn't mean that each formation should be that versitile, just that the army as a whole should be. ?Sorry for the confusion.

As for the spirit stone thing. ?That was just the first suggestion. ?I'm sure there are other viable options. ?Based on the Slanni/Lizardman background, there needs to be a way to reduce blast markers or reduce their effect. ?Lizardmen are virtually unfased by combat situations. ?

How advanced do you want them to be outside of the Slann Tech?

This is still up for debate. ?

My original idea set them at about human level, but general consensus has been that traditional ground vehicles should be eliminated in favor of an all walker force.  

This would really make this army distinctive and will prob. stick. ?

This seems to suggest a slightly higher than human level ?(might make sense since they are the OOs first children, even older than Eldar). ?

Equipment will prob. fall just above human with a few very powerful remaining OO(Old Ones) weapons assigned to specialized inf units.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:22 pm 
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Makes sense to me... I'll see  about dreaming up some basic stats for some of the stuff tonight. I'm not sure how well I'll capture what you're after... But you never know, it'll at least give something to start with!
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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 7:29 pm 
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It might be more fluffy if only the Saurus based formations had whatever this ability will be. ?Krox too if they turn out to be actual Saurus or something bigger.

The Skinks are not as "warrior-born" and therefore would be affected normally.

Whatever the ability is, it needs to come from the Saurus units, not an outside leader. ?It's not a leader that keeps them focused, it's their own single mindedness.

I want to clarify that this isn't my consecpt of how they should be, this is from the fluff.

Maybe the ability should not be as powerful as ATSKNF, as the Saurus may end up having larger formations than marines. ?Formation size is still undetermined as yet.




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 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 8:54 pm 
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I saw something else in that Lizardman name generator.

"Bridge of the Stars"

Xlan teleport network?

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dafrca
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 9:41 pm 
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Just an observation, it seems like you need to agree on tech level and "feel" of this army before you move much further in the "What Units do we want" questions.

It seems there is not an agreement yet on the feel thus some of the different opinions are at cross purposes. Once the feel and tech levels are agreed upon, it will make some of the other questions more clear.

Just an observation.

dafrca

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 12:30 am 
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This is the point where I pull on the reins and clam up for a few days.  But before I do:

Pyramid

Very, very rough so far.  The first one is my attempt at something that doesn't look too similar to a Necron Abattoir - making it taller, for one thing - and might be reasonably easily built with stacked plasticard.  The top is some kind of weapon shaped like the symbol of Chotec.  The statues I thought could offer some kind of defensive attack (Venom of Sotek?), and are based on the standards from the Saurus box.  You get eight to a box, so if you can find a Lizardmen player they shouldn't be too hard to get.  The hemispheres underneath are based on the Slann palanquin, but I thought spheres or hemispheres would be easier to find than lozenges.

Standing back, I don't like it.  The lower one is undeveloped, but closer to my initial thoughts.  Though if the standard heads are to scale, the thing would be almost a foot across.
I need to find a middle ground, maybe; try a few other ideas; and ask if I'm just pissing in the wind.
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dafrca
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:06 am 
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(Vermis @ Jul. 18 2006,16:30)
QUOTE
This is the point where I pull on the reins and clam up for a few days. ?

Was it something I said?   :(

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Wed Jul 19, 2006 1:10 am 
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Yes.  But I think I needed it. :p
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