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E:A  Rise of the Dracon
orangesm
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:07 pm 
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I do not see them having any tracked vehicles but all skimmers.  I think technoglogy would be something that they are not concerned wth.  I would say they are not advancing technologically but have units equipped to defend the great works of Old Ones.

Which gives me another idea for a unit - Primitives.  The Primitives may even form the core of the army with the specialist being the Lizardmen.  Any thoughts?

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 12:57 am 
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I wouldn't mind more skimmers myself. :blush: ?Not that I mind tracked/wheeled vehicles, but I think that pax vehicles might look too human.
BTW, yes - the pax APC looks suitably blocky, at a pinch.

Kray infantry as krox: mmmmmaybe. ?But then the lightly armoured guys only have big guns. :p
I had the andrayada vorace in mind when I started thinking about 'kroxigor' walkers, though I think it might a tad large. ?2 for ?5... that'd make it about MBT sized? ?I was thinking of something more like a dread or sentinel. ?Something that could keep up with skinks, and contribute some oomph to CC.
Vergers and velites might be more appropriate. ?Maybe. ?And the voran looks like a candidate for their stegadon...
I'd agree with Dafrca, anyway. ?Wait and see.

Heavy inf. as oldbloods: I'd prefer to keep the term 'oldblood' for characters, TBH. ?Perhaps give heavy inf. a name relating to Quetzl or Sotek?

Terradons: saurus with wings... I dunno. ?It sounds similar to kroot vultures; and also like it's a gene-splice too far, for the Old Ones.
Saurus (or skinks) with jump packs would be more to my liking. ?Andy vulturs, perhaps, dropping from a modified vertex?  And call 'em daqtls, or terradaqtls.  Keep terradons as skimmers. :;):

Primitives: interesting idea, but I think I'd prefer the saurus and skinks as the basic troops.
Some kind of hunting beasts as formation upgrades, maybe? ?A bit like kroothounds?

Background suggestion: I finally got round to downloading the Swordwind Eldar list. ?The bit at the start about craftworld runes interested me - specifically Saim-Hann's cosmic serpent. ?Sounds like a hook for us to sort out a 40K version of Sotek. :;):

I was going through my 5th and 6th ed. lizardmen books again, and I'm reminded that the Slann and Lizardmen have a lot to do with astromancy and geomancy - gravitic and seismic mischief. ?What say you to an ability similar to an orbital bombardment - representing calling down chunks of (pre-prepared?)meteors, or earthquakes? ?Or a special rule allowing the Lizard/Dracon player to add/rearrange terrain, at the start of the game?
IIRC, calling down chunks of meteors is what the FB Engine of the Gods does. ?If there's to be an Arcanodon tank (being the FB beasty the Engine is mounted on), could some kind of gravitic effect (probably not attracting space debris) be applied to its weaponry? ?Even if only in the background, and ingame it just has the same effect as any old ork lobba - i.e. killing things dead.
Hmm. ?'On a roll of 6+ any skimmer or aircraft that survives the initial attack crashes...'
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:00 am 
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(orangesm @ Jul. 17 2006,17:07)
QUOTE
I do not see them having any tracked vehicles but all skimmers. ?I think technoglogy would be something that they are not concerned wth. ?I would say they are not advancing technologically but have units equipped to defend the great works of Old Ones.

Which gives me another idea for a unit - Primitives. ?The Primitives may even form the core of the army with the specialist being the Lizardmen. ?Any thoughts?

I understand where you're coming from, but I just don't see this army that way.  Maybe once they had all skimmers, but after millenia of combat, many have been lost.  They have had to learn to build their own equipment, but it isn't as advanced as that left by the Old Ones.  OO tech is so advanced they can't begin to understand it, let alone replicate it.  I really want them to feel like an army that's been abandoned and had to find it's own way.

I like the idea of primitives, though maybe in more of a Grot capacity (well, not quite THAT useless  :laugh: ) than as the main force.  

These could be Legion 4's primates.  He suggested them as an ally race like Tau & Kroot.  Now if he can just find some!

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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:37 am 
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I wouldn't mind more skimmers myself


My main problem with this, is I think the OO skimmers should be very powerful (they're OO skimmers after all!)

Oh, well, it's open for discussion.

But then the lightly armoured guys only have big guns

They're big guys, they carry big guns ?:D. ?It was just a proxy based suggestion.

(Vorace) that'd make it about MBT sized?

I've checked, it's a bit bigger than an MBT. ?I wasn't suggesting it for Krox, but just an an OO vehicle.

Saurus (or skinks) with jump packs would be more to my liking

I'm good with that. ?I would like to keep orangesm's idea of them descending from a "Terradon" skimmer though.

Heavy inf. as oldbloods: I'd prefer to keep the term 'oldblood' for characters, TBH. ?Perhaps give heavy inf. a name relating to Quetzl or Sotek?

I'm good with that

And the voran looks like a candidate for their stegadon...


Same wavelength.....

an ability similar to an orbital bombardment - representing calling down chunks of (pre-prepared?)meteors

Sounds good. ?Could be as simple as their ships have giant rail guns that use meteors for ammo. ?

Some type of Seismic weapon would work for their TK weapon.

Or a special rule allowing the Lizard/Dracon player to add/rearrange terrain, at the start of the game?

This seems VERY fitting. ?The Dracon/Slanni become the masters of using terrain. ?Just have to be careful it's not to powerful.

If there's to be an Arcanodon tank, could some kind of gravitic effect (probably not attracting space debris) be applied to its weaponry?

I'm torn. ?From it's description, it sounds like the perfect SPG. ?On the other hand, some sort of Gravatic weapon would be perfect for grounding skimmers. ?Esp. useful against their nemesis the Necron. ?I'd love to see them be able to swat skimmers!

Could the Arcanodon be the SPG and mount the Grav weapon on something else?

Primitives: interesting idea, but I think I'd prefer the saurus and skinks as the basic troops.
Some kind of hunting beasts as formation upgrades, maybe?  A bit like kroothounds?

Again, firm yea vote on the primitives.




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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 3:33 am 
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I own a bunch of Vorace which I use to stand-in for my Knights Lancer, which I have nothing else to fill in for. They're quite large, about the size of a Knight Paladin, maybe a bit bigger, right now. The models themselves would probably be the same height a Land Raider is long, but they're much more square. Like the Warhound, they're not all that tall but they're very deep and wide. Practically square.
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:00 pm 
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How about making all non-skimmer vehicles walkers? :cool: ?Therefore the Vorace could be used as their basic MBT. ?It'd be another counterpoint to the Necrons, who don't have any walkers. ?So saith Jervis. :;):

So it could go something like...
Varan = Stegadon
Vorace = ? Carnosaur

The old Chaos dread is vaguely similar in shape to the Vorace. ?Possibility as Krox walkers*? ?Those, or the old SM dreads. ?Until something more appropriate and available comes along.

*If the Krox are walkers, and not creatures. ?Sorry. ?I've got that idea stuck in my head.

Limited numbers of...

Arkalest = Arcanodon
Kurall or Kijakk = Terradon
Vertex = Coatl

(Alternatively, Kurall/Kijakk = Coatl, Vertex = Terradon)

Grav weapon: no probs. ?That could be their AA tank, represented by a Kray Gerresh or Arka. :;): (I'd prefer the Arka, meself, as its armament looks a little more like an energy generator/projector)
The weapon affects the bonds between the target's atoms/molecules, causing it to disintegrate (or causing key components to disintegrate, and causing the rest of it to explode), implode, whatever. ?Or just pulls the target apart, without getting down to the atomic level. ?Against aircraft and skimmers: if the attack does not successfully destroy the target, there's still a chance that the gravitic effect messes up antigrav generators, instruments, etc. ?Down it goes, like Hans Moleman.
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:18 pm 
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For the Vorace, here's a good size comparison: Vorace Height against a standard Andryada leader.

The Vergers would fit quite well with the whole general-walker idea. Since they're more the size of vehicles and less the size of super-heavy units like Knights. The Varan might also work, I've not seen them next to other minis so I'm not positive how large they are. But they seem like roughly the same 'class' as the Vorace.
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:45 pm 
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Thanks Ilushia. ?Can you tell me if the turret is a seperate component? ?I'm wondering how easy it would be to convert one into some sort of 'Cold One' IFV.

Would they merit WE status, rather than AV?

Vergers and velites: I haven't completely dismissed them, but I'm not 100% convinced. ?Given that they're not much bigger than an SM dread, and have similar stubby legs, could they be given a move greater than 15cm? ?That being the main bugbear of dreads, IIRC.
Knights with a 20cm+ move have that because of a longer stride length, IMO. ?Faster dread-sized walkers such as sentinels and war walkers are lighter, longer-legged, and 'bird-legged' (that last one might make sense only in my head).

Then again, ork dreads and wraithlords are move 15cm. ?I haven't heard as many complaints about them.

Thoughts? ?Opinions?
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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 1:56 pm 
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Technically the term you're looking for is 'Digitgrade' for the walkers. That 'ankles in the middle of the leg' look with knees higher up which walks on the balls of their feet (Most animal hind-legs are built that way, really).

The turret is, indeed, a separate part. Assuming you mean the one on the top of the vehicle. So you can mount it any way you feel like (I had some problems getting them to sit flat on mine, infact. Due to the way the model is cast, it's not uncommon for the bit on the top to be too long to let them sit flat.)

I think you could legitimately make them 20cm move-speed models. Actually the major problem with the Dreads is that they can only be fielded in units which move faster then they do. Just moving 15cm isn't bad, but the fact that they can't be fielded when not in a unit of other guys is bad. If you put them in with Marines they suddenly can't use their transports effectively. Also: just because they're not much bigger doesn't mean they can't be heavier armored. The Wraithlord  is actually significantly smaller over-all then a Dreadnought is in 40K, and is substantially tougher to kill in the same system. Same in Epic, it's actually smaller (It's taller, but drastically thinner then a Dreadnought is), but is also vastly harder to get rid of.

I'd recommend, if you do let the Vergers take to the field as vehicles, make them their own formation of some kind. Maybe as your heavy-weapon support formation or something. 3+ armor, 15cm move, a pair of 45cm-60cm range weapons would be perfect, IMHO. Great for forward garrisoning and fire-power. A unit of say 6 of them would be awesome. The main issue with the Dreadnought is more that it can't be fielded independently, and that it's weapons are so short range that it can't effectively shoot at enemies at any reasonable range, even compared to the units it's assigned to. As an  independent formation they work MUCH better, at least as far as I can tell (The Defilers have the same 'slowing down the formation' problem. As do Obliterators. But Obliterators can teleport, so you can throw them in with Chosen for a teleporting formation quite easily.)
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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:28 pm 
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(Ilushia @ Jul. 18 2006,13:56)
QUOTE
Technically the term you're looking for is 'Digitgrade' for the walkers. That 'ankles in the middle of the leg' look with knees higher up which walks on the balls of their feet (Most animal hind-legs are built that way, really).

You'd think I would remember the term, what with a zoology degree and all. ?But it is only a 3rd... :laugh:

Yup - turret on top, ta.

Thanks for the verger/dread help too. ?I need it. :;):

20cm for whatever-vergers-represent, then. ?I was also thinking 25cm for the 'carnosaur' - or would a speed similar to Knights Errant or Lancer (30cm) be more appropriate?

Er, before we get carried away... how do you stand on the walkers & skimmers idea, Consectari?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:46 pm 
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Vermis: How about making all non-skimmer vehicles walkers?


OK, this is an idea I can REALLY get behind!  It'll make it a bit harder to find proxies, but we may just need to keep the range of AV sized walkers limited to something like 3 or 4, but lots of each.  This will really contribute to my new concept of them as masters of difficult terrain.  I think I read something about either the WFB or the Warmaster version ignoring some sort of terrain effect, so this is very fitting.

Vermis:  The old Chaos dread is vaguely similar in shape to the Vorace.  Possibility as Krox walkers*?

I'm not opposed to the idea of Krox as walkers.  I don't think it's big enough to be a large lizardman in a walker, so could they be completely machine rather than skinks in suits?  

Vermis: Vertex = Coatl

You'll have to bring me up to speed on what the Coatl unit is.  I don't think something as big as the Vertex should be the Terradon though.

From GW web page: As the Lizardmen are cold-blooded, they are sometimes slow to react to battlefield conditions. Terrifying monsters, huge outnumbering forces, and the deaths of their brothers-in-arms ? things that would cause other troops to panic and flee ? have little effect on the Lizardmen. It is only the will of the Mage-Priests and the Great Plan of the Old Ones that motivates the Lizardmen, and they tend to fight on, regardless of consequences.



I think this needs to be incorporated in the army in some way.  

I see this being reflected as a Strategy rating of 3 (slow to react) and an initiative rating of 2(motivated only by their cause).

I think this would also justify an ability that reduces the effects of blast markers, similar to ATSKNF.

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Ilushia
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:55 pm 
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Remember: Units moving over 15cm can't garrison. If you make them 20cm move-speed, then they're not able to garrison and are quite slow (And I can't see them being that good unless they pack a LOT of fire-power as a result!) As for actual move-speed on the Vorace-equivs? I'd say go for 25cm. Unless you're doing an assault unit then 20-25cm is plenty for them. The only reason I want the Knight Paladin to move up to 25cm is because it's a melee assault formation, and has some real problems actually REACHING assaults. Since it's only slightly faster then infantry.

What kind of style are you going for this army? More assaulty? More shooty? Balanced in the middle?
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:55 pm 
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Vermis: As I mentioned in passing, on the temp forums: in the background pages on alien threats, the 4th ed. 40K book has a John Blanche drawing of a reptilian creature.  The banner at the bottom of the drawing says 'Slanni'.  I assume it's a creature that the Imperium has recently encountered


I keep meaning to bring this back up as I don't think anyone responded.  

Should we consider a name change to keep the army closer to actual fluff.  I only borrowed the Dracon name from Netepic, as I didn't think "Space Lizardmen" was appropriate.

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Vermis
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 4:57 pm 
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(consectari @ Jul. 18 2006,16:46)
QUOTE
could they be completely machine rather than skinks in suits?

Only if you're not being pushed away from the creature concept against your will. :;): ?I'd prefer skink-piloted walkers myself, but I don't think it makes much difference!

Coatl and Terradons: I think we're getting crossed wires here. ?When I heard the idea of winged/jumppack lizardmen dropping from a transport, I was thinking of how assault SMs can drop from a thunderhawk. ?But I have an inkling you mean something more like IG valkyries...

I think this would also justify an ability that reduces the effects of blast markers, similar to ATSKNF.


Just what I was thinking! ?Something simple, like 'each formation removes an extra blast marker when regrouping, exactly as if a Leader was present. ?If the formation contains a Leader, the effect is cumulative'?
Or something a bit more complicated?

Ilushia: told you I needed help.

Personally, I had ideas about a force reasonably good at assaulting, backed up by short-medium range fire and a limited number of big guns.
Con?  Your thoughts?

Should we consider a name change to keep the army closer to actual fluff.  I only borrowed the Dracon name from Netepic, as I didn't think "Space Lizardmen" was appropriate.

Squamats - snakes and lizards being squamatids.  But then it sounds too similar to squats.
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consectari
 Post subject: E:A  Rise of the Dracon
PostPosted: Tue Jul 18, 2006 5:01 pm 
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What kind of style are you going for this army? More assaulty? More shooty? Balanced in the middle?



I really felt that as they were "created" as a fighting race and given equipement specifically designed to help them in their cause, that they should be balanced in the middle.  They may not be as good at assaults as SM but better at ranged combat.  They aren't as good at ranged combat as IG, but better at assaults.

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