Login |  Register |  FAQ
   
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"

 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 5:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France
Hi,

today is Bastille Day in France and I?ve got plenty of free time on my hands, so here?s a short review of the Inquisition army list, against which I?ve played a few times now.

First off, as I said in a previous post on the temporary Epicomms boards, I think Lord Inquisitor made a really good job and produced a very characterful list.

Now for the rest of my comments and suggestions, in no particular order:

GENERIC COMMENTS

- First suggestion, and a rather radical one : instead of making one big list, I think you should make 3 separate, shorter lists. This would imply some repeated text (the universal Inquisition forces, for example), but this (mainly cosmetic) change would make it much easier to choose your forces and would give a ?cleaner? look overall. This would also mean a smaller ?Upgrades? section for each army, making the whole thing less confusing.

- I like the allied/inducted forces system, I think it works out quite well. However, I?m not sure you should allow Allied troops to be selected from another Ordo. Why would the Deathwatch and Grey Knights be deployed together? The Ordos are very specialized and very rarely fight together, I think.

- I think the Strategy Rating section could be simplified as well. Just give the Inquisition a generic SR 5 with a -1 modifier if Imperial troops are included in the army.

UNIVERSAL INQUISITION FORCES

- Last Man Standing: is this rule really needed? It?s only useful if you place you Inquisitor at the front of your formation? Why bother with a rule that will rarely be used?

- The Inquisitor Lord upgrade isn?t clear : since you can have 1 Inquisitor per 1000 points of army, the text (as worded) seems to imply that you can add 0-1 Inquisitor Lord to each Inquisitor Retinue, meaning you could have 3 Supreme Commanders in a 3000 points army.

- Warrior Henchmen: while Slow-Firing may be in character, I also think it adds an unwelcome micro-management aspect. ?OK, this stand fired last turn, but not this one...? Why not make their plasma cannon AP5+/AT5+ and be done with Slow-Firing?

- Support Staff are a very nice idea, although it?s easy lose track of the number of  re-rolls used (using dice is of course the solution, but it?s so easy to pick up the wrong dice inadvertently).

- Officio Assassinorum : I love them! Making them special effects instead of actual models was an excellent idea. Just one thing, though: How does the Venenum assassin work exactly? It is an Insidious effect but it apparently has to be played after deployment, meaning you have to activate it *before* the game starts? And does it receive the -2 modifier for being activated in the first turn? If this is the case, shouldn't it be cheaper because of its lower initiative?

- Arco-flagellants and Penitent Engines: are you sure the Crazed special rule is needed? Why would you want to hold back these troops anyway? All they have is assault and/or CC weapons, so they will be assaulting at every opportunity, special rule or not.

- Gun Cutter: the Glavian Pilot upgrade is too complicated in my opinion, not too mention very strong (too strong?). It think the list would be better off without it.

- Pegasus Landers: instead of adding a special rule, why not simply make them transport upgrades?

DEATHWATCH

- I?ll copy and paste Honda?s feeling on this (taken from a discussion on the temporary Epicomms board), as it reflects mine perfectly (my emphasis):

Well, I think one thing that needs to be kept in mind is that their "superior" ammo isn't of the quality that bolter armed troopers will start running round blowing up Leman Russ tanks and the like. However, the ammo does and should provide superior armor penetration against power armor troops.

Also the idea of a squad of guys running up and emptying their bolter clips into a Gargant and blowing it up is a bit of a stretch. After all, even Imperial titans have to take some time to beat through the shields, start fires, etc.

So as was proposed above, I think strong consideration should be given to limiting the sniper ability to AP weapons.

A precedent for the approach of focusing the weapons on AP shots occurs in the Tau list where their Rail and pulse rifles have had the AT fire removed, even though shooting at armored transport in 40K is de rigueur.


If this is implemented (Sniper on AP weapons only and not in assault), Deathwatch marines should probably be made FF3+ to justify their cost. Perhaps give Deathwatch Terminators an edge by allowing their assault cannons to have Sniper (representing very rare and expensive special ammo).

- Thunderhawk Destructor: I?m no specialist on air units, but isn?t it a bit cheap at 250?

GREY KNIGHTS

- Rites of Exorcism is great and very characterful.

- As Ilushia already mentioned, Shrouding could do with a better wording. Again, I'll copy and paste his suggested rewording, as I like it a lot : ?Any Indirect Fire, Aircraft attack or attack originating from beyond 45cm of the formation counts units with Shrouding as being in cover?.

- The "No Invulnerable Save? on Psycannons is a nice touch. :)

- Holocaust is yet another special rule, and perhaps it isn't essential, but I like it a lot. This is what makes the Grey Knights so special.

SISTERS OF BATTLE

- Faithful: perhaps a bit complicated to keep track of which units have prayed or not, but a nice touch nonetheless.

- Seraphims: Shouldn?t they be CC5+ and FF3+ instead of CC4+ and FF4+?

- Sisters Repentia: I think that, for clarity?s sake, the Mistress (and her electro-whip) should be made a character.

- Basilica Imperialis: the variable CC and FF values are a bit clunky in my opinion. Better to give it CC5+ and FF4+ right away.



Right, that?s it. While it may sound like a lot of criticism, please don?t be put off with it, as I feel you?re doing a great job. I just think the list (or lists, if you ever decide to go that way) is a bit confusing and suffers from too many special rules at the moment.

I hope you?ll find these commentaries useful and look forward to seeing the next version of the list.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 6:08 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I really love the list over all as well. It's neat, makes me wana build a Grey Knights army!

On the Plasma-Cannons: The trouble here is Plasma Cannons already have a stat line in the game on the Leman Russ Demolisher. So 4+/4+ Slow Firing is expected. Myself, I like the 'plasma weapon recharging' markers from the old 2nd edition 40K game to mark them out. Really any way of telling is simple. Turn the stands around also works. Or get order dice and use them to mark the guys reloading.

Seraphim fit at 4+/4+ I think, given the way they work in 40K. Essentially they have twin-linked pistols (wielding two each) which they can use as extra CCWs as well. They're currently the only units around which can wield two pistols in close-combat. And they are actually about as good as Space Marines as a result. If anything I'd say CC 4+, FF 3+ would be more appropriate. But I think that'd make them too good.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:10 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
First of all, thanks for the feedback - been a while since anyone has given the list a good going over!

Three lists. At the very beginning I very conciously decided against making a totally seperate list for each Ordo, because it limited the amount of options in what felt - to me - to be quite an artificial way. There were a couple of Daemonhunters or Witch Hunters Epic lists floating around and I wanted to do something different. That said, perhaps you're right - the list could be divided up without losing anything. I will give this some serious consideration.

Mixing Ordos. Well, there are quite a few examples of Ordos combining - Grey Knights and sisters fighting together, for example, in Grey Knights. It can represent the Inquisition using two sets of specialists against - say - a chaos-infected genestealer coven, slaanesh eldar or stranger beasts. It could also be due to the Inquisition throwing every available unit against the enemy in desperation. We COULD remove this option - cutting the number of options down is always a good thing - but I felt it important at the inception of the list.

The +1 for pure-ordo was to give a bonus to those who want to use such a force, because it'd be difficult! The -1 for IG is to limit the use of SR5 guard.

Last Man Standing gets used all the time in my experience.

I'm not so sure with the Slow-Firing either, but as Ilushia says, there's precident here. I use the 'turning backwards' method if I need to differentiate between units - usually I blast away at the first opportunity so it isn't an issue! Just mark the formation as 'Fired'. Actually, come to think about it, last time I played I dug out some of the old Plasma recharging counters from 2nd ed...

Support Staff can be a little fiddly. I have some problems with it, and will probably add some kind of explanation when and how to use the re-rolls, but not in the special rule. But counters or dice work okay.

The Insidious effect don't require activation. However much fun I had with the Assassins, I think I'm going to make only two effects not six - a generic 'insidious' and a generic 'blat' effect. Especially since noone knows what the Vanus do! But I think they need simplification.

Crazed could do with a review, you're quite right that it is somewhat unnecessary. But I don't like the idea of these units getting broken and being unable to assault.

I think glavian pilots are necessary. However, I think I'll make them a character upgrade, and I might tweak it a bit. Bear in mind that with a glavian pilot it is as expensive as a Thunderhawk.

Pegasus Landers - aha! You've fallen into the "why not make them an upgrade" trap! How would that work? Once landed the troops wouldn't be able to move away from their (move 0cm) transport, nor would their transport be able to take off!

DWKTs - I hear you on the sniper thing. However, it is a pretty elegant way of representing their abilities. What is your suggestion for a fix? Just FF3+? I really don't like that. I am willing to up the cost of them, however, if necessary. However, note that they WERE more expensive and I actually dropped their cost due to their fragility in my experience.

If you think the Destructor is too expensive I'll up the cost. Note that it has half the transport capacity of a regular T-hawk, but I'd like to hear more feedback from playing - in my games it was good but not that much better.

I wanted to give the impression that the Basilica really isn't an automated bastion like the capitol, but more like a mobile church, and therefore somewhat dependent on the 'congregation' in its defence. Suggestions for making it more streamlined?

As you might guess, I?m a big fan of special rules, and I could probably do with having a LOONG look at the list at where I can chop out special rules. Still, I think that little special rules really give flavour to the list ? do the seraphim need a 10cm consolidation? Probably not, but I still like it.

Don't worry - I'm always, always happy for constructive criticism. And I promise to at least consider suggestions carefully! ;)

Lord =I=


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 10:32 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
P.S. We were discussing modelling possibilities with this list on the temp board - I just wanted to say again that if anyone has/is making any tasty units, please post or email me photos - I am compiling photos and would like to have one for every unit plus hopefully an example page of conversions with advice to go with the list. I am, of course, making units myself, but I really haven't been able to get anything painted in the last year, two children, my wife and my PhD advisor rather making playing with toys difficult!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Fri Jul 14, 2006 11:21 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Mon May 08, 2006 10:50 am
Posts: 1189
I've not had any problems understanding the way the Assassins worked... Their Insidious effects come into play all on their own, not needing them to activate to use. You activate them for their Assassination attack against an enemy character (For those times when the enemy has just one stand of BTS left, and you really need it dead RIGHT NOW). But the insidious effects don't need to be activated to use. It's just that once you've USED the assassin, they're no longer available. That's the way it reads to me anyway!

For the Pegasus Lander: Why not just make it an upgrade and put in the upgrade '1 Independent Pegasus Lander - Must begin game with the purchasing formation inside it, however is not part of that formation.'

That'd let you keep people from buying these guys as a generic aircraft, while retaining the flexibility you're worried about losing.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 11:02 am 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am
Posts: 876
Location: Brest - France

(Lord Inquisitor @ Jul. 14 2006,22:10)
QUOTE
As you might guess, I?m a big fan of special rules, and I could probably do with having a LOONG look at the list at where I can chop out special rules. Still, I think that little special rules really give flavour to the list ? do the seraphim need a 10cm consolidation? Probably not, but I still like it.

Well, I agree that special rules are what really makes an army different from all the other armies.

It's funny because I just had a long (and rather heated...) discussion about this on the Warmania forum. Basically, what I said was that Epic Armageddon focuses more on universal special rules (Eldar's Hit & Run, Marines' ATSKNF, etc.), while NetEpic uses more specific special rules (i.e. they apply to one unit only, just like your "Seraphim consolidates 10cm").

As I said before, I love your list but I think that if you want to keep the Epic A "feel", you should concentrate on giving flavour through rules like Rites of Exorcism and Faithful rather than Glavian Pilot or Crazed. Get rid of the "small" special rules (however heart-breaking that may be...) and concentrate on the "generic" rules, those that will define your armies and the way they fight.

Actually, writing this I just realised one thing : out of the three Ordos, only the Deathwatch doesn't have any kind of special rule. Now, instead of giving Sniper (which is way too powerful imo if they can use it in assaults) to everybody, why not make a generic special rule similar to Rites of Exorcism and Faithful?

For example :

Xenos Hunter

The Deathwatch Marines have fought thousands of battles facing Xenos scum. They know the best ways to kill them and are equipped with the best weapons and ammunition available in the Imperium.
When facing Tau, Eldars, Orks, Necrons or Tyranids, units with the Xenos Hunter ability may re-roll their failed To Hit rolls (no dice may be re-rolled more than once).


This is perhaps too powerful as well, but you get the idea. I think you can add flavour without overburdening the list with special rules. Look at the Eldar list : it is very flavourful, yet there are no "specific" special rules. I think you should aim for the same kind of result with the Inquisition list.






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Sat Jul 15, 2006 12:29 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:11 pm
Posts: 418
Location: France (Rouen)
The Pegasus lander 'type' is wrong.
It's an aircraft, but as it can land, it miss a 'ground' type (infantery, light vehicle, armoured vehicle, war engine).
Making them "war engine (DC 1)" would solve the transport special rule, unless you don't want them to be war engine (you see them as light vehicle).

Inquisition fortress 'type' is also wrong, you should replace "war machine" by "war engine".

_________________
My gaming and painting blog : http://figsdeflogus.blogspot.fr


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 6:57 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
Ilusia: you're correct about the assassins.

I think your suggestion is more complicated than it need be. What's the problem here, out of interest? People taking "armies" of nothing but aircraft? Perhaps that ought to be watched, but bearing in mind that e.g. Space Marines can do it with arguably superior Thunderhawks?

Hojyn, I take your points about special rules, and I'll take a long look at the list. With regard to the Deathwatch, however, note you're advocating a new special rule when a normal specialist unit ability would suffice? And I would rather not give them a special rule "versus Xenos" because that is a little fiddly, and they're not quite a specialised as the Grey Knights.

Flogus, you're right about type, and I'll correct the fortress. Not sure about Pegasus being WEs, I think they can simply be Aircraft; AV.

Keep it coming! I'll put an updated list up when I can.

Lord =I=


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 10:52 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother
User avatar

Joined: Tue Jun 20, 2006 1:50 pm
Posts: 482
Location: Greater Los Angeles Area, CA
Now I know that this is not going to be welcomed comment, but I really do not see the point of Inquistor List.  I really see them being a small detachment that takes command of an Imperial Guard or Space Marine force.  I would argue for a few formations designed to be added to other Imperial List.   For example a Ordos Malleus List would have:
Formations:
Inquistor Formation (consist of Inquistor Character and Inquistorial Storm Troopers 7-9 Stands)
Grey Knights Power Armored (power armored Grey Knight Formation 4-6 Stands)
Grey Knights Terminators (terminator Grey Knight Formation 4 Stands)
Grey Knight Land Raiders (Land Raider Grey Knight Formation 4 Vehicles)
Grey Knights Thunderhawk (Thunderhawk Grey Knight Formation 1 Vehicle)
Upgrades:
Inquistor Lord
Inquistorial Thunderhawk
Inquistorial Valkyrie Squadron
Grey Knight Grand Master
Grey Knight Hero
Grey Knight Dreadnaughts

And these would be units for an Imperial army with a 20% point cap very similiar to te Imperial Navy and Titan Units.

Just my thought on how they should work.  That they would not be a force unto themselves but accompanying another larger force fighting the forces of evil.  Epic also just does not seem to be the right place for an Inquistorial Strike Force to appear.  They seem to fit better in a 40k scale battle.  Just my thoughts.

_________________
Airspace - AeroImp Forum


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Lord Inquisitor "Inquisition army list"
PostPosted: Mon Jul 17, 2006 11:02 pm 
Brood Brother
Brood Brother

Joined: Wed Jul 06, 2005 7:20 pm
Posts: 1216
Location: Norfolk VA USA
A common and fair point. That's fine, and in many cases you'd be right. Smaller Inquisition forces can be played using 40K or Inquisitor games.

That said, while it may be relatively rare, the Inquisition DOES deploy standing forces of the Epic level and above!

Firstly you do get Inquisitors whose first response to a problem is to rush in with a massive army and subdue those who resist. Other Inquisitors have huge personal standing armies. In either case we're talking about armies that would easily reach 5000 points if tranlated to Epic.

If you look to the background, in the Eisenhorn trilogy (a great source and inspiration for much in this list), in the first book the Inquisition Taskforce at the end consists of three frigates, two battleships and three Inquisition cruisers. On board there were no less than six Inquisitors under the command of an Inquisitor Lord, sixty Deathwatch, and one hundred and twenty thousand conventional troops. Now you fit that lot into one Epic army!

In Malleus the final battle consists of a massive naval taskforce with five inquisitors and their retinues versus a immense personal army of a rogue inquisitor.

And you might think, that's fine for Inquisitors, but it's unlikely that you would deploy a hundred Grey Knight terminators as a single army, but it has happened, and on Armageddon too. In the novel "Grey Knights" there is an apocalypic battle involving 300 Grey Knights!

As far as my list goes, I've made every effort to make Deathwatch and Grey Knights available in small formations and make taking a small group of them an attractive option. On the other hand I don't see the problem with massed ranks of Sisters. Ultimately it is up to you to find the balance between powerful army and fluffy army.

As for adding units to other armies, I don't think that's a good idea for GT lists. For non-tournament games, sure, but you don't need an army list for that. But the IG and SM lists should be balanced as they are - giving them the option to add (powerful) new units is by default going to make them better lists. If you want to make an IG or SM-heavy ITF force, you can do that within the list and the allies options.

Lord =I=






Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 23 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  


Powered by phpBB ® Forum Software © phpBB Group
CoDFaction Style by Daniel St. Jules of Gamexe.net