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Proxies for Epic miniatures.
Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 5:16 pm 
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That is why we use a hybrid/modified rule system. Jervis & Co., never got over their boyhood days of D&D. And hence no matter how many books they read or other companies' games they play, they will forever be haunted by the concept that war is hitting the other guy over the head with a club! :laugh: ?

Amateurs!!! :laugh:

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dafrca
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 6:58 pm 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 09 2003 July,09:16)
....they will forever be haunted by the concept that war is hitting the other guy over the head with a club! :laugh: ?

You mean it's not ?:o

One of the things I like about the old GW type view is that I never need to confuse it with "reality". ?:laugh:

When I play Dirtside for example we sometimes get into lengthy discussions based on what kinds of changes real life is having. Can slow down a game. :p

dafrca

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Periodic
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 7:36 pm 
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Not to be an ass or anything (ie. Paul "You're in the wrong hobby" Sawyer), but I think its a bit silly to complain that 40k has too much emphasis on close combat, and isn't an accurate reflection of modern combat. The setting and rules have always been a sort of patchwork tribute to every era of warfare known to man, and the ones in which guys with clubs beat each other over the head outnumber the ones with smart artillery and APC's. Complaining that anything 40k has too much heroic close combat is a bit like complaining that a Star Wars game system has too much focus on Jedi's and Wookies, and not enough on the intricacies of squad psychology.

I've always seen it as a crazy amalgamam of historical combat, historical mythology, and Star Wars. I mean where else can you have the legions of Genghis Khan (rough riders) charge from a foxhole of entrenched WW1 infantry (Imperial Guard) at a horde of gibbering demonic hordes allied with well-trained special forces in futuristic plate mail (chaos). That sheer whacky madness is why I play with the 40k universe. Of course the rules are going to have to take a few steps away from realism in order to support such an unrealistic (but fun) universe. :oo

Maybe thats why I like playing Chaos. :D

That said, artillery could perhaps use more rules, but would the net effect be all that different? I mean, if shots have a tendency to scatter, isn't the net effect nearly the same as a simple reduction in "to-hit" rolls, for example? Sure you lose the "scatter onto something completely different then what you were targetting" effect, but realistically, does that kind of scattering really have much effect on a battlefield? (serious question for those in the know, as I haven't a clue) Since a turn is supposed to represent 15 minutes of sustained artillery barrage I find it hard to imagine that a few stray artillery shells would really have an appreciable effect on a formation unless the misfiring artillery got really lucky.

Just my forum-newbie 2 cents. :blues:

-Periodic.
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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 9:26 pm 
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Well, in an "intellectual" discussion all points of view are welcomed. ?However, we are not talking about 40K rules, which in my opinion, are silly and ... suck ! ?We're talking about Epic rule systems for FA. ?I know you're new to the forum so welcome aboard, however you won't find too many rabid 40K fans here. ?Most of us are pretty hard-corps Epic players. ?I've been playing Epic since SM1 in '90, and collect all the armies, so I've been around. ?Too many times on 40K sites your brethern use the same very tired excuse, "It's not supposed to be realistic, it's a Sci-Fi/Fantasy game." ?Well we have had similar discussions here many times, and you'll find most of the Epic gamers here are a little more "evolved" when it comes to gaming rules. ?We like Sci-Fi and we like some reality in our rules, as well. I have some knowledge and experience in the use of Infantry, tanks, artillery, etc., so regardless, whether tanks are manned by Orks or Nazis, they should function a certain way in modern mid-20th century warfare which Epic rules, in general, are based, ie. WWII mobile warfare. ? If you read the entire thread you would have seen that I said, that by making the FA rules simpler and a little weak worked or it appeared so, an entirely accurate portrayal of FA would not be much of a game (WWI, Dien Bien Phu, etc., etc.). ?And we have always used Scatter rules in Epic and it does matter. Hitting the wrong target may affect your plan, if you have one ? ?Oh BTW, I've also called in FA and CAS for real, and again, it does matter. ?And I know about the 15 min. per turn, which is in the E-A rules. I doubt, it's a 15 min. sustained barrage, anymore than any unit that fires is "hosing" a unit with small arms fire or tank rounds. That's alot of ammo - "Amateurs talk tactics - professionals talk logistics.", is a current saying with the US Army. So does it matter - "NO" - play whatever game or rules you want, but, saying you play Chaos and 40K and saw Star Wars - well, "that ain't gonna cut you no slack" with me ... :laugh: And again, welcome to the forum ... :;):

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primarch
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:02 pm 
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Hi!

The problem with placing a blanket restriction for artillery not to move and fire is it makes mobile artillery worthless. Why buy a whirlwind if a basilisk is so much better?

This has been a problem with artillery in epic for a long time and the only solution has been to make mobile artillery weaker and cheaper, which isn't much of a reflection on modern combat doctrine where most artillery is mobile, or dead...

I would restrict the move and fire penalty to static batteries and let mobile forms "shoot and scoot". It makes for a more mobile game.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2003 11:51 pm 
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We played Whirlwinds, Manticore 1s, Thud Guns, and M/Mortars, could move and shoot but, it effected accuracy (-1 to hit). ?But again, my favorite rant ... about a little realism vs. comic book skullduggery ! ?:laugh: ?Even dafrca almost agrees with me ... :p

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dafrca
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 12:31 am 
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Quote (Legion 4 @ 09 2003 July,15:51)
Even dafrca almost agrees with me ... :p

I would have to say this is true. I almost agree with you  :laugh:

dafrca

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 1:38 am 
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Sometimes almost is the best you can hope for ... :laugh:

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dafrca
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2003 7:48 pm 
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Well, the idea of the change in slow fire has had a large number of people saying please leave it as is. Interesting, here is the thread:

http://uk.games-workshop.com/40kuniv....ID=1018

dafrca

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:39 am 
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Very interesting comments. However, in reality (yes, I'm going to use that word again :;): ) artillery moves, (1 turn) and Shoots (next turn). ?

The only exception to that were the vehicles I mentioned previously, these would be light or medium indirect fire assets. A Basilisk is like a SP 155mm, no way should it or the Bombard (a heavy mortar) or the Manticore (G/W's version of an
MLRS), shoot & move in one turn. ?

But this is my opinion, and we will continue to use the system I had talked about before. By simplifying the FA rules, Jervis may have done the game and certain armies a disservice... but what do I know?! :D

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dafrca
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 6:44 am 
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I know what you mean when you are talking "reality". There are so many things in all the games I play that just fly in the face of reality.

Sometimes I just look at some of these rules as pure game "balance" and/or mechanics control rules. They are not made to make sense but rather the help control some game issue.

Who cares that a Fighter Bomber should not be able to drop its full load, return to base, load up, fly back, and drop another load in less then 15 min. I do not mind when I realize the plane is just a piece in a game no different then a rook or pawn.

Ah look, now you made me go get all philosophical  :;):

Guess it is time to go to bed  :laugh:

dafrca

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:33 pm 
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Yes, we can certainly agree on that, to make FA & CAS too "realistic" i.e. to modern standards; wouldn't be much of a game. ?

We use the same system to call in CAS as we do FA. And kind of keep everything to WWII standards. Plus we are thinking about a longer rearm & refuel rule for aircraft.

But like I said before, everybody should do what works for them... and have fun! :D

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nealhunt
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:52 pm 
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Well, I ordered a MoW Gyrocopter with my bitz order yesterday.  I'll be sure to report on its utility as a Deth kopta once it comes in.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 4:59 pm 
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Just got some Pendraken 10 mm Aliens & Lizardmen.  The aliens look just like the "Aliens" in the movies !  Will make good 'Nids. The L/men, both Inf. & Mtd. will make good ... I don't know what ?  Maybe Slann as Primarch has suggested, but they are pretty "neat" too ...   :cool:

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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Jimbo
 Post subject: Proxies for Epic miniatures.
PostPosted: Fri Jul 11, 2003 9:59 pm 
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Quote (nealhunt @ 08 2003 July,15:09)
Just checked Jimbo's page, and didn't see any Koptas under Orks or Conversions. ?Would they be sompelace else? ?Are there any pics available for yours or BBS's?

eventually I am hoping to have a Jimbo's workbench which will show a lot of my work in progress... in the meantime here is a picture of my dethkopta work in progress



I have 12 of them, based on Ork buggies (with the wheels cut off), using a part of the bases sprue and plasticard.

I only have painted miniatures in my galleries hence the inability of you to find this picture...

Here is what Jimbo's Workbench "may" look like (it will cover both Epic and WH40K as well as other "stuff".

Workbench - Grotbomb Launcha

Workbench - Burnaboyz

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