Eldar Scorpion Preview |
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primarch
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview  Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 12:54 am |
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Hi!
I have found from a games design point of view that the easiest way to have artillery still powerful and curtail its use is to use spotting rules. This also gives the games commnad and control mechanic a boost because command units are no longer "roving" units but actually manuever to get line of sight for artillery bombardments.
Any mechanic that increases the comand control aspects of gaming is a worthwhile one.
Primarch
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 6:00 am |
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That's very true, E-A's Command & Control rules are a bit simplistic too, but it appears to work for the overall system.
Again Jervis did what G/W always does, spends a lot of time on close combat and taking the easy way out with ranged weapons.
Because of the 15 year old comic readers, which appears to be their target audience, Jervis knows they don't understand "fire & movement", but they think it's cool to run into the middle of the battlefield and hack at each other. ?
I've seen too many battle reports, where they think they are using mid-20th century tactics and the whole thing looks more like the ACW or WWI-1917. ?
Jervis may quote Marshal, Keegan, etc., and talks about watching "Band of Brothers" and uses his perceptions of all that, however, in the end, it's all Sci-fi comic book stuff for the kids that play it. ?
Look at the crowd at a gaming convertion... 'nuff said... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 5:31 pm |
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Hi!
Because of the 15 year old comic readers, which appears to be their target audience, Jervis knows they don't understand "fire & movement", but they think it's cool to run into the middle of the battlefield and hack at each other.
I've seen too many battle reports, where they think they are using mid-20th century tactics and the whole thing looks more like the ACW or WWI-1917.
Jervis may quote Marshal, Keegan, etc., and talks about watching "Band of Brothers" and uses his perceptions of all that, however, in the end, it's all Sci-fi comic book stuff for the kids that play it.
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I think part of the problem is while the 40k universe is nominally a sci-fi setting, it behave like a 18-19th century army and in some instances a medieval army. While firing and other "modern" concepts, by necessity are covered, each set of rules makes close combat much more important that it is under real battlefield conditions.
Not that CC isn't important, its part of the backgrounds charm. But it is difficult to sometimes reconcile the modern part of warfare with 40's insistance on close combat.
Primarch
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stormseer
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2003 9:05 pm |
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Oh yeah, I agree, close combat seems to dominate rather in 40k, especially with armys like Blood Angels and Space Wolves for example, which are both quite popular with new players as they are; a). Space Marines (groan of boredom) b). easy to play with, and c). easy to paint and not too expensive to collect... They both have tactics which seem to be "jump in the Rhinos and charge at them, then get out and assult."
-Boring I think you'll agree when this happens in every game...
Personally I think it seems somewhat ridiculous for a Rhino-load of marines to jump out in front of an enemy squad, and charge headlong into combat- in reality (hmm, in 40k..  ), what I think would happen is that the enemy squad would hold ground, take careful aim and blast away at the multiple targets that are coming at them..... 
-Just a few thoughts.. Cheers!
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 3:36 pm |
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So I guess we are all in agreement!!!  ?
That's why instead of all the "wringing of hands and nashing of teeth," we are happy to do our own thing.
Over the years and a number of times in the E-A downloads, Jervis says, "... if you don't like this or that, use your own method ..." ?
Even he realizes, we may have our own ideas on how we prefer to do things... 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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dafrca
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:01 pm |
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| Quote (stormseer @ 30 2003 June,13:05) | Personally I think it seems somewhat ridiculous for a Rhino-load of marines to jump out in front of an enemy squad, and charge headlong into combat- in reality (hmm, in 40k.. ), what I think would happen is that the enemy squad would hold ground, take careful aim and blast away at the multiple targets that are coming at them.....
-Just a few thoughts.. Cheers! |
You need to go read this short story I found quite some time ago.
http://stargrunt.netfirms.com/groundzero.html
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:08 pm |
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Very interesting...
Humans (supposedly Traitor ?) taking on the SMs... and whacking them! ?
I like it!!! 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:24 pm |
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That's a great story.
Maybe it's because I'm Jewish, but I have a real aversion to the screwed up parts of history that GW recreates in their fantasy 40k universe. Granted that warfare is ultimately not a good thing, but GW chooses to heroify the Inquisition!?&$@!
What's the deal with that?
Massmurder, intolerance, and with hunts! They even pick the head of the "real" Inquisition and make him the lead of their "fantasy" Inquisition!
The real Knight Templars that the Black Templars are based upon are some pretty sick individuals. When the Arab world talks about crusaders, they have a real point. The crusaders basically raped and pillaged their way through the Holy Land until the wieght of Muslim arms finally pushed them back. The real story is an ugly one.
I understand that 40k is fantasy,b ut if I had my choice, I'd pick fantasy with a looser connection to real history.
I keep expecting GW to come out with Space Marine "lords" based upon Hitler and Stalin.
Already quite a few (if not all) of the GW characters are based upon true historical figures. Asmodai, for instance, was a Persian god of evil. Go figure!
Armageddon is a place straight out of the Bible / Torah!
Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.
P.S.
I guess having little problems like this is the price I pay for reading history books. ?
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dafrca
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 5:25 pm |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 01 2003 July,09:08) | Very interesting...
Humans (supposedly Traitor ?) taking on the SMs... and whacking them! ?
I like it!!! |
The guy who wrote that story was/is a Stargrunt fan and an ex-40k player. He said, in one post, that it was his GZG Stargrunt Platoon vs. SMs.
Either way, it was so close to what Stormseer said that I just had to post the link ?
Dafrca
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stormseer
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 8:13 pm |
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Lol... Thanks a lot for posting that Dafrca.... it provided a most excellent little aside for me to have a snigger at....
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dafrca
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:40 pm |
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| Quote (stormseer @ 01 2003 July,12:13) | | Lol... Thanks a lot for posting that Dafrca.... it provided a most excellent little aside for me to have a snigger at.... ? |
I'm glad you liked it
dafrca
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dafrca
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2003 10:44 pm |
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| Quote (MaksimSmelchak @ 01 2003 July,09:24) | | Maybe it's because I'm Jewish, but I have a real aversion to the screwed up parts of history that GW recreates in their fantasy 40k universe. |
Nah, I do not think it has anything to do with your being Jewish. I'm not Jewish and that same issue has always bothered me as well.
I walked out on a D&D campaign because the DM wanted us to take part in the crusades. Real places, names, etc. I told him no thanks.
I do not like when games set in "fantasy" worlds have real world religions. I did not like it when in a game of Traveller the GM told me my character was a heroin addict. I told the GM no. Bottom line, I like to keep my History and my "fantasy" seperate.
dafrca
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Legion 4
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 6:03 am |
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Well Maksim,
I understand your concerns, being a fan of history. I, too, see many bitz of history mixed in with G/W's fluff. It shows that they are somewhat well read and probably think that most of the guys playing their games would not know much about history, unless they read about it in a comic book!? ?
That's one of the reasons I don't play historical games anymore... too much reality. Being a former grunt... well... let's just say my perceptions about warfare are skewed.
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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TuffSkull
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 10:46 am |
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| Quote (Legion 4 @ 02 2003 July,06:03) | Well Maksim,
I understand your concerns, being a fan of history. I, too, see many bitz of history mixed in with G/W's fluff. It shows that they are somewhat well read and probably think that most of the guys playing their games would not know much about history, unless they read about it in a comic book!? ?
That's one of the reasons I don't play historical games anymore... too much reality. Being a former grunt... well... let's just say my perceptions about warfare are skewed. |
I dont think it neccessarily has much to do with being particularly well read. I am well aware that many of the guys at GW are, but at the end of the day it's just easier to re-write history and nick the bits you want than trying to come up with something totally original. Thats certainly what I've found whilst writing my own game's (extensive) history. Even things like coming up with names can be hard work. You try picking 50 character names without any of them linking to history in some way - there's very few that dont crop up in some form in some period or another.
I agree entirely that fantasy should be well separated from history, but when the world becomes full of events, and thousands of characters, inventing all new material can be a real chore & if you have to churn it out, resorting to history can seem like the easy way out to get the job done so I have some sympathy for them._________________ Cheers, Paul "TuffSkull" T. http://hobbybrush.com - My New Website, with thousands of painted Mini Pics :) http://hobbybrush.blogspot.com - My Hobby Blog TuffSkull's notepad- My Old Blog on Wargames Wiki.
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dafrca
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Post subject: Eldar Scorpion Preview Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2003 2:58 pm |
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| Quote (TuffSkull @ 02 2003 July,02:46) | | You try picking 50 character names without any of them linking to history in some way - there's very few that dont crop up in some form in some period or another. |
Here is why I do not feel sorry for them. The point for me is not that they have an Abe Lincoln or a John Paul in their background. I agree names are often used that are real names. It is the next step they take that I do not like. Abe Lincoln is the leader of their world and John Paul is the leader of their fictional church.
I do not have an issue that the borrow a small part of History to help with their background. It is the massive amounts of the negative parts of history combined together and presented in a heroic light that is the real issue for me.
The examples Maksim used are good ones because they hit the same button for me. OK, you need some great evil to sweep the world, an Inquisition could be that evil. But to make them the "good guys" and leave in the massmurder, intolerance, and assasinations. Then sell this twisted reflection of real history to 10 to 15 year olds who will not know any better?
OK enough for now. I'll go back to the happy dafrca now.
dafrca
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