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Results from Battle Bunker
admutt	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 3:35 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:25 pm Posts: 5	Hello everyone! I am a long time lurker here, but I thought I should post my Necron results from this past Saturday.  This was an official "event" at the Battle Bunker in Oakville, Ontario.  Army size was 3,000 points with any of the current play test lists allowed. First, here is the list I took along: Phalanx #1 = 6 Warriors, 1 Lord, 1 Pariah, 2 Immortals Phalanx #2 = 6 Warriors, 1 Lord, 1 Pariah Phalanx #3 = 6 Warriors, 1 Lord, 1 Pariah Pylon Monolith (with 3 Obelisks) Obelisk Recon (6 Obelisks) Abbatoir Tomb Complex Eques = 4 Destroyers, 2 Heavy Destroyers Venator (6 Flayed Ones) I managed to play 4 games against different opponents: 1) Space Marines - Necrons win 3 to 1 in 3rd turn 2) Eldar - Necrons win 2 to 0 in 3rd turn 3) Blood Angels - Necrons win as Blood Angels resign in 2nd turn 4) Orks - Necrons win as Orks resign in 2nd turn Now, as much as I like the Necrons, I am beginning to wonder about the close combat stats for the Monolith and Pylon.    It seems to me that +1 per unit in range (even at 5+ FF) is a mite too powerful. As an example, I tend to intermingle a Phalanx with a Monolith formation and a Venator formation.  Now, for an Ork Mob to assault this, they will want to get every unit within 15 cm of the Necron formation.  If I have the Monolith sitting smack in the middle of this (which is simple enough to do with a little foresight), I have a 5+ FF on every single unit in the Mob. This happened several times on Saturday, and not just against the Orks.  Basically, I was able to position the Monolith (or the Pylon) in such a way as to support every close combat action taken against the Necrons or taken by the Necrons.  The results were usually quite deadly for the opposing army - I think I only lost 2 assaults all day. My recommendations: a) put a limit on the number of targets that can be hit by this weapon, or b) increase it to 6+ FF for the +1 per unit line, or c) change it to +4 hits at FF4+ MW. Now, I'm not a (total) crackpot - I have been playing Necrons in my regular Friday night group for a couple of months now, and neither the Space Marines or Tyranids have yet to score a win.  The running joke is that the Monolith and Pylon are "broken"   - so I put it before the rest of you, "Is the +1 per unit in range too powerful?" Andrew, loyal servant of the Nightbringer.
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corey3750	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:08 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm Posts: 525 Location: Baltimore MD	well, that's how it's supposed to work oddly enough.  I didn't design the weapon.     You'll have to blame GW for that one. But really, it seems that I see what the real problem is. Your opponents are assaulting formations with a Monolith in or near them. This is a dreadful tactical error. Since you are using your monoliths as mobile fire bases, the only sound tactic is for your opponent to pour whatver AT fire they can at the Monolith, until they kill it or break the unit. _________________ Necron Army Champion "Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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admutt	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:34 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:25 pm Posts: 5	Well, yes, I agree that it is a tactical error on their part, but when 3 formations "appear" 6 cm away and pin them down, one of those formations having the scout ability (wedgie!), what else can they do?   Seriously, my best tactic was to surround tightly gathered formations with obelisks, monolith, flayed ones, pylon (only on first turn) and/or impassable terrain.  Since they have to move with the flayed ones' ZOC overlapping them, they do not have much of a choice. I also found that teleporting obelisks make wonderful road blocks, allowing the abbatoir to come up from the other side of a target formation.      And if the monolith happened to be in range, all the better. But, if everyone agrees that 5+ FF with +1 per unit in range is acceptable, I'm not going to argue it any further.
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corey3750	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:43 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm Posts: 525 Location: Baltimore MD	I've found that one of the best tactics anyone can use, it to deploy their entire army virtually intermingled against the Necron. That makes it EXTREMELY dangerous for the Necron to assault _________________ Necron Army Champion "Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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Hojyn	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:48 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am Posts: 876 Location: Brest - France	Sure, assaulting a formations that are close to a Monolith is a form of suicide... Yet, Admutt seems to raise a valid point. In this Tyranid vs. Necron batrep (see here), you can read things like: "Three Monoliths shot over 30 shots of supporting fire" "However I get 36 hits with Monolith shooting 17 times by itself" The fact that you can teleport several Monoliths at once and then benefit from their support in the following assault can seem a bit over the top. I'll play my first game with Necrons next Thursday, but I know my opponent already fears this tactic, and his first remark upon reading the list was that Monoliths (and Pylons) were frightening. Of course, Monoliths are quite easily broken/destroyed, but once the first overwhelming assault is over, the opponent has little chance to recover. Corey, have you had similar reports/remarks/game experiences with the Monolith? Do you think it is truly balanced? Don't get me wrong, I love the "+1 per uni in range" idea, it's just that it seems really powerful. Would Admutt's suggestion of FF6+ for the Monolith (and perhaps FF5+ for the Pylon) make those two units not worth their salt?
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Hojyn	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 6:52 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am Posts: 876 Location: Brest - France	Quote (corey3750 @ 20 Feb. 2006 (17:43)) I've found that one of the best tactics anyone can use, it to deploy their entire army virtually intermingled against the Necron. That makes it EXTREMELY dangerous for the Necron to assault Sure, but what if the Necron player takes a lot of Monoliths and repeatedly assaults with them, one by one? 1 Monolith = 65 points, and yet it has the potential to affect LOTS of units with only one assault. And if it is destroyed in the process, well, it only cost you 65 points.
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admutt	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 7:11 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 22, 2005 3:25 pm Posts: 5	Corey - I've faced the intermingled enemy as well, but since Necrons have better FF than CC, I don't usually take them into ZOC of the enemy so am truly only assaulting one enemy formation.  Yes, they will get all that extra FF in supporting fire, but if you have picked your target correctly, you are almost guaranted to wipe them out/break them, thus causing blast markers on every supporting formation.  And if you manage to retain the initiative, another assault can end the same way.  Which will seriously reduce the intermingled enemy's effectiveness. And actually, I've found that I love having my Monolith formation broken (once it has been used, of course).  That just means I get to put it back anywhere I need the support or the portal for the next turn.   Another question for Necron players - where do you usually put your Pylon down?  I've found that the most effective area is somewhere on the enemy's table edge.  Or as close as possible, with support from a Monolith or two.  (Or a second Pylon if you've got it.)  That always distracts them, as any aircraft they field will get shot at for sure, unless they can destroy the Pylon (or at least break it).
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corey3750	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:21 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm Posts: 525 Location: Baltimore MD	well, if your oponent declares his own formation intermingled, you aren't facing part of his force, you are facing most, if not all of it. When formations are declared intermingled, they are considered a single formation for the duration of the assault. They would easily be able to withstand the two assaults you have, and then would have you in a position where they could sustain fire to blow your monolith's apart. The First turn burial tactic can be brutally effective.  But I've never been able to pull it off against an opponent who is prepared to hunker down for the first turn and ride out the storm.  If they do that, you are open to a world of hurt, especially if they win the initiative and get to blow your Monolith's apart before you even get to use them.  And a Monolith's use for your army goes far beyond the 65 points that is spent to get it on the table. Consider:  If all of your portals are destroyed, your enemy need only break your formations in order to achieve victory, not destroy them. I've generally found it's best to hold off till the second turn.  Give the enemy a chance to spread out some to claim objectives, and then drop on them.  Then you can face only a few formations at a time, and defeat them in detail. Oh, and another thing:  Air power.  The Pylon is very effective at swatting air transports out of the sky, but is less effective against normal aircraft, and virtually useless against Orc air. Where you place them is dependant upon what you want them to do.   If you want them to be and AA unit, then keep them well back, and in cover.   If you want them as a support unit for your ground forces, put them on a hill near the center of the board if possible, or at least in a place with clear lines of fire. _________________ Necron Army Champion "Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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corey3750	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:29 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm Posts: 525 Location: Baltimore MD	The ability of the Monolith's Gauss Arc Flux to devestate oponents is somewhat... conditional. Yes, it can be exceptionally effective (one of the reason I DROPPED their FF from what it origionally was).  But in order to actually make the most of it, you have to go first. I can't say POSITIVELY that it is balanced.  I know from my own games that it seems to be.  While it is a powerful unit, that power is balanced by the fact that you can't really afford to risk it if you want to win in the long run.  The wise enemy will take what AT power they have, and tear into them as soon, and as often as possible. The point of all these games is so everyone can help accumulate data, and I'll take that data and try to adjust things to correct any balance issues it shows. If the direct translation of the weapon (which is pretty much what it is) proves to be too powerful, I do have a couple of options squirrled away from the days when I was trying to find a way to make formations of Monoliths. _________________ Necron Army Champion "Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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Hojyn	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 8:44 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Sep 27, 2005 9:52 am Posts: 876 Location: Brest - France	Quote (corey3750 @ 20 Feb. 2006 (19:21)) well, if your oponent declares his own formation intermingled, you aren't facing part of his force, you are facing most, if not all of it. When formations are declared intermingled, they are considered a single formation for the duration of the assault. Actually, it's the attaking player who gets to decide whether the formations are intermingled or not. Rulebook, page 26, 1.12.10 If there are two or more formations within 5cm of the target formation, then the attacker can choose to include one or more of them as the target, he does not though have to include any of them. So the Necron player can very well concentrate on one enemy formation. He will still suffer from FF support fire, but the target formation will almost ceertainly be destroyed AND the supporting formations will probably suffer from the Monolith FF attacks. Anyway, you're probably right when you say that more playtesting data is needed before any changes are made. And just so you don't think I'm overly critical, I do like the Necron army in its current incarnation and I can't wait to try them out.
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corey3750	Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2006 11:26 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 5:02 pm Posts: 525 Location: Baltimore MD	If you read further, it also mentions, I belive, that the defender has the option of declaring his own formations intermingled. Even were that not the case, you can deploy units with overlapping ZoC to FORCE someone to declare intermingling. Scouts set up as a picket force around the main unit are also good at holding off the assault for the first turn. I find it somewhat ironic that the 'nids might have a tough time against the Necron, as in the story universe, they will avoid any planet with even a sleeping Necron presence on it.   _________________ Necron Army Champion "Do not come whining to me because you are weaker than your enemy." - Alexander Corvinus
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nealhunt

Post subject: Results from Battle Bunker Posted: Tue Feb 21, 2006 12:16 am

Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA

If you read further, it also mentions, I belive, that the defender has the option of declaring his own formations intermingled. It does not.  That was discussed as an alternative to the experimental assault rules as a possible counter to the massed intermingled clip that breaks the majority of an army, but it's not even in the experimental rules, let alone the core. Even were that not the case, you can deploy units with overlapping ZoC to FORCE someone to declare intermingling.

No, you cannot.  A firefight does not require entering anyone's ZoC.  It doesn't matter how overlapping the target's ZoCs are if the attacker doesn't have to enter them.  They can freely pick off any single one of the formations without having to declare them intermingled.