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E:A Black Legion Army List
Legion 4	Post subject: E:A Black Legion Army List Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 4:50 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Well, like I said, much of E-A is still "under construction", it appears, regardless of the fact that they said the rule book was headed to the printer (?). The dicussion on the FA topic showed Jervis was still making changes (?). ? So, I imagine the final copy will come with an errata sheet or pamphlet (?). ? I'm glad we use our own "hybrid" rules and only adding a few things from E-A like modified Flak rules and maybe even the ranged combat system? My buddy is going to Games Day US this weekend, (besides getting me some F/W Epic Night Spinners and possibly some other new Epic F/W (?) ), he is going see if he can get any new intell on E-A. ? Anything worth noting, I'll let you all know... ? _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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nealhunt	Post subject: E:A Black Legion Army List Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:03 pm
Purestrain Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 10:52 pm Posts: 9617 Location: Nashville, TN, USA	It's not at the printers. ? It's with the editors getting print-ready, and doing the (supposedly) final draft. ? Printing isn't supposed to start until September, IIRC. _________________ Neal
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Legion 4	Post subject: E:A Black Legion Army List Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:14 pm
Brood Brother Joined: Thu Feb 13, 2003 5:13 pm Posts: 36989 Location: Ohio - USA	Well, That's good, but that is also why I put a (?). Because I've said this many times before, after 12+ years of "Epic'ing", I'm a "cold zero" realist - until I have something in my hands, it's in the realm of Nessie, Big Foot, Roswell etc. ? Again, G/W is "artist driven" so style always - I say again - Always - supersedes function and form. ? You'd think G/W was run by females!!! ? Albeit quite rich females!!! _________________ Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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MaksimSmelchak

Post subject: E:A Black Legion Army List Posted: Fri Jun 20, 2003 5:29 pm

Brood Brother Joined: Sun Feb 16, 2003 4:43 pm Posts: 7258 Location: Sacramento, California, USA

Neal, Originally I wasn;'t going to respond, not out of being offended (Dafrca and Neal are both gentlemen of the highest caliber), but because I'm not sure how much this topic could add to the forum other than adding my gripes and dissatisfaction about E-A. On the other hand, maybe someone will prove me wrong, which I'm all for! Maksim: ?I think some of the points you make don't apply to the latest stuff. OK, Point taken. I'll stand corrected! - Stompas They are exactly what you want - tough fire support. ?They have 2 big gunz and Reinforced Armor, with optional CC. ?AFAIK, they have always been 50 points.

I think what I mentioned before is that while Stompas are still OK, they were once MUCH BETTER. They were a real threat to enemy armor, even Land Raiders. Now, in a Stompa vs. LR combat, I'd put money on the LR unless the Stompa can get close (not very likely unless the terrain favors the Stompa).

Stompas are tough fire support, but with only two Big Gunz, they are woefully under armed if they're to oppose enemy armor. Two 5+ shots means roughly 1/3 of the time, it's hitting. Pretty pitiful and this is before negative modifiers.

- Ork Warlord - It looks like he was eliminated.
The Warlord upgrade in most formations was scrapped in favor of much-improved nobz. The Warboss/Big Boss upgrade that comes with an ork force is still there.

He is a character and a supreme commander and the point about Nobz is a good one. Shedding BMs is great. I concede on this point.

- New limits on Ork formation size x2 or x3 also appear to be in place.
There is no limit on formation size, except for aircraft. ?They can buy the core formations at x2 or x3 size and cost because it's cheaper than buying each unit individually. ?Or did you mean something else?
Big Warbands and ?Uge Warbands: An Ork player can choose to double or triple the number of units in the Ork warband if he wishes. A warband with double the normal number of core units is called a Big Wareband and costs double the number of points. A warband with three times as many units as a normal warband is called a ?Uge Warband and costs three times the normal number of points.

I put a quote under your comments, Neal. I wouldn't be surprised if the part about Big Warbands and ?Uge Warbands is intended to be a limit set by Jervis. It definittely needs clarification.

- Orks lost most of their fluff rules.
They get "mob up" bonuses. ?They get wildly diverse formations. ?They get a Warboss. ?They get bonuses for charging into combat in a Waaagh-like fashion. ?That covers Orkiness pretty well, imho. ?What rules are you referring to?

These are the rules that they still have:
SPECIAL RULE: Power Of The Waaargh
SPECIAL RULE: Mob Rule
SPECIAL RULE: Ork Power Fields

The wildly diverse formations is good, but I refered to it as being a "broken concept" in my rules since some Ork players are using it that way.

Waaargh is better than it used to be (includes flyers now).

I miss the extra BM for the clangor of Ork fire. That was one of the rules that made tackling SMs much more manageable.


>> As soon as the Ork weaknesses become known, the limited nature of the Ork lists...
*boggle* Limited? The only limitations are Oddboyz, Supastompas, and the total points on WE/Aircraft. ?Outside of your personal preference for Supastompas, how does any of that limit strategic choices? Aside from a very non-Orky stand-and-deliver force, you can build anything you want.

Orks have a very limited number of units compared to SM or IG forces. This translates into a limited number of combinations, which is a liability in a list-based sytem. Look at 25mm 40k.

Aside from a very non-Orky stand-and-deliver force, you can build anything you want.

You can build just about anything you want, but they're all going to function just about the same: "Rush forward in a hoard and hope to overwhelm the enemy." This will work until IG and SM players wizen up and realize that Orks have one real strategy. Then SM and IG players should defeat Orks well over half of the time.

I find "Rush forward in a hoard and hope to overwhelm the enemy" to be a little limited and boring. It's one of the reasons I didn't care for the Orks in Epic-40k. They got slaughtered almost every game, even the ones that they won. I realize that the game is supposed to be balanced meaning that both sides will inflict and take casualties, but it always seemed well against the Orks even when the VPs indicated otherwise.

Having Orks that could "stand-and-deliver" was a welcome change. I was really pasting the SMs with tougher formations up until the Orks became so diminished from their first go.

Of course, it is perfectly Orky and GW-y to have lame and limited Orks. SMs are supposed to be the centerpiece of the game. That's why they have more choices, units, and most everything else (except the Red Wuns Dat Go Faster! Of course, Blood Angels do have supercharged vehciles so I guess SM Red Wunz DO go faster!). ?

>> By the latest edition of the E-A rules, they're back to being a hoard army.
I don't understand what you mean by "back to..a horde." ?They've always been "the green hordes." ?I understand you may not like it, but it certainly fits the background.

I mean by "hoard army" is that they're beginning to play exactly like they did in Epic-40k.

You're right, it certainly fits into the background. The Orks come in huge waves that are eventually whittled down so that the Imperial forces can win yet again!

- BFs with variable weapon loads
- The old 0-1 limits apply to Oddboyz upgrades and SupaStompas now.

BFs with variable weapon loads was the best thing since sliced bread. I'll miss them. SOB, SOB!

I agree you should be able to get more than one upgrade for the soopagunz (BFs and Big Gunz upgrade) and Painboyz (nobz upgrade). ?The Zapp gunz are too powerful. ?I doubt most opponents would object as long as you kept it reasonable. ?I would suggest you field your Pulsa Rokkits as Oddboyz Big Gunz so they have templates.

I'd rather have Pulsas than making Big Gunz with my single Oddboy upgrade into Pulsas. It's a good suggestion though! Thanks!

- Ork Bommas:
This would be nice, but I don't think its absence hurts the Orks. ?Ork airpower is wicked.

Try using Ork airpower to stop Imperial bombers. It's not easy.

Ork airpower works pretty well in the ground attack role. The Bommas were even better. They were also of the few new Ork units too! Of course, it has been hinted that they'll be back later (they're apparently suffering from not having a sculpt yet).

- Gunwagons, Battlewagons, Gun Trukks, etc. - All of the other things have been combined:
Were stats for Lungburstas, Gutrippas, ad infinitum, different enough to bother with, even in SM2? I never thought so, even for fluff.

Let's agree to diagree. I think that variety is the spice of life. It makes more combinations possible for a list-based system and keeps my opponenets guessing.

None of that was intended to be abrasive. ?You have my apologies if it came across as such.

No worries, mate! I'm good if you are too!

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.