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Rules: Tyranids and objectives

 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:36 am 
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Its a peice of the fluff that I don't understand.  Entire sectors of the galaxy are blocked out by the shadow in the warp, hive ships can control drones over tens of thousands of km, yet on the board we need a synpase creature within a few score feet otherwise our gaunts start acting weird.

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:48 am 
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Don't know where I stand on this one.

I can see lots of reasons for Tyranids defending their rear, many mentioned here. It's not like the "hive mind" is stupid, they are the first known race to cross the distance between galaxies. There must be some brains there, including the knowledge of e=mc^2 and how to efficiently strip 100% of the organic matter from the surface of a planet. All that I'm quite happy to put down to stuff we M2 humans do not understand yet!

The question is: How do we make the EA Tyranids an army that must be used offensively to win?

At the moment it's too easy to win playing defencively.

A couple of (probably foolish) ideas I had and not thought all the way through (yet) and which I'd like to add to the melting pot are:

1/ Drop SNG from the army selection. Replace Objectives on Tyranid side of the board for SNG. The opposistion need to destroy these rather than control them to gain goals. (bit like wraith gates) (maybe just the blitzkrieg)

2/ This army represents the advancing front of the subdual-phase, which is about removing the enemies capabilities to interupt the later consumption of the resources. Therefore the army should primarily be about taking out the enemy army over holding gound for any reason.

3/ Hold the Line and Defend the Flag for the Nyd player could be changed to wiping out the 2nd and 3rd most expensive fomation the enemy has?

More later

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 11:54 am 
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Well the ships are slightly bigger than a gaunt, so they might have larger synpase gangila to pick up the commands.

I've Got it.  TSNP says that the formation has to unbroken.  If there is an unbroken enemy in your half the assault need to turn around and eat it.  Thus slowing down the assault, giving the enemy more time to escape or destroy the planet.  Thus TSNP isn't about defending the Rear area, rather about making sure everything is dead.

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Sun Oct 30, 2005 12:11 pm 
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Again DTF and TAH can be explained by the need to destroy all enemies before moving on.  Both of them can be seen as the need to push forwards destroying everything before the swarm and leaving nothing behind.

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:19 am 
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For the record here is the entire piece I wrote

Tyranids Proposed Army List

Strategy Rating: 1+
Initiative Rating: 2+

Special Rules

T1.20 Unstopable
Tyranid formations never receive Blast Markers and can therefore never be suppressed or broken by them. As long as they are under the control of the hive mind they quite literally don?t know the meaning of fear, and will mindlessly sell their lives in order to buy victory for the hive mind. Tyranid formations that lose an assault still make a withdrawal move, and any units that end up within 15cms of the enemy will be destroyed, but the formation itself is not broken.

T1.30 Tyranid Swarms
The Tyranid army is divided into three basic unit types: Independent Creatures, Synapse Creatures, and Brood Creatures. Each of these unit types is noted on the separate data sheets, and in the following army list.

Independent creatures and Synapse Creatures, are organized into formations just like any other units, and all normal Epic-A rules pertaining to formations and units applies to them (Yes this means that the three Tyranid Warriors in the Tyranid Warrior Brood must be within 5cms of each other to be in coherency, they cannot use brood creatures to do it). On the other hand Brood Creatures are purchased as individual units that will become part of a swarm led by a Synapse Creature Brood, therefore the size of each swarm is going to fluctuate in size from turn to turn.

In order for this to work the Tyranid player must assign the brood creatures to swarms led by a Synapse Creature Brood before the start of the battle, and at the beginning of the battle, and at the beginning of each turn after turn one. Before the start of the battle the Tyranid player must assign all the army?s brood creatures to a swarm, until all of the brood creatures have been assigned to a swarm, and the player must note down the value of each swarm based on the Synapse Creature Brood leading it and teh Brood Creatures assigned to it at the start. So, for example, a Swarm led by a Tyranid Warrior Brood, and having ten Termagaunts assigned to it before the start of the battle is worth 300 points. At the start of the battle each Swarm must be set up as a legal formation containing only the units assigned to it, with the only exception being that the Tyranid player is allowed to hold Brood Creatures off table for later spawning by any Tyranid formation (The reasons for obtaining these points values becomes clear later).

Starting with the second turn, and all following turns, a swarm will consist of all the brood creatures that are within 15cms of the synapse creature brood that is controlling them. If brood creatures are within 15cms of more then one synapse creature brood then the Tyranid player gets to choose which swarm will take control of them.

Any Tyranid creature can start any turn, after turn one, out of formation as long as the swarm they are part of moves back into a legal formation when it takes it?s next action. Any brood creatures that are not within 15cms of a synapse creature unit at the start of a turn will go to ground an will be removed from the table. Although the creature is not dead it has reverted back to it?s animalistic instincts, and is lurking around waiting for an easy meal! As with eliminated brood creatures these units may be returned to play using a Spawning Action.

T1.40 Spawning Action
One of the most terrifying things about fighting a Tyranid Army  is that their never seems to be an end to the number of creatures in the army. Even if an assault is stopped more Tyranids will soon appear to renew the attack. Some of these will be brood creatures that have gone to ground and have been incorporated back into the hive mind, while others will be reinforcements sent by the hive mind to sustain the attack. To represent these effects a Tyranid formation that carries out a Marshal Action may spawn back units into a swarm that have been eliminated, gone to ground, or where held back by the player before the start of the battle. Note that only brood creatures may be spawned back, and also only units that have been eliminated, gone to ground, or were held back may be spawned, you cannot spawn in and in effect create ?new? units. Also you cannot spawn independent creatures, or synapse creatures as they are too rare to be spawned in this manner.

The Tyranid player rolls 1D6 for the base Spawning Action, and may add an extra 1D6 if there are no enemy within 30cms, and for each Myecetic Spore added to the swarms spawning action. The total number of ?pips? achieved on the all the dice rolled are the spawning points the Tyranid player has available to ?buy back? brood creatures from the following list.
One Infantry Type Brood Creature Unit: 1xPip
One AV Type Brood Creature Unit: 2xPips
One WE Type Brood Creature Unit: 2xPips per DC of that unit.

T1.50 Tyranids Claiming Objectives
The Army?s brood creatures are mindless drones that, without the control of the hive mind, are incapable of any kind of real coordinated action, much less real rational thought. So even under the control of the hive mind they will stumble right over an objective without giving any real thought to seizing control over it. To represent this, only Tyranid synapse creature units and independent creature units may be used to claim an objective, brood creatures cannot claim any objectives.

T1.60 Tyranids and Break Their Spirit
The heart of the Tyranid Army are it?s synapse creature units, with independent creature units being valuable but not critical, and brood creature units being next to meaningless because of their large numbers. Therefore the only way to truly disrupt, and then halt, the actions of a Tyranid Army is to eliminate the synapse creatures that are controlling it. If half, or more, of the Tyranid army?s synapse creature units are eliminated then the opponent has achieved the ?Break Their Spirit? objective. For the purposes of this rule WEs count each of their DC as a unit, and they only count if the WE is destroyed. Thus a Dominatrix would be worth eight synapse creature units if it were eliminated, but none if it wasn?t destroyed and had lost some of it?s DCs.

T1.70 Tyranids and Tie Breakers
For Tie Breakers you treat all Tyranid independent formations as you would any other formation in Epic-A, however swarms have to be treated differently because their size can fluctuate from turn to turn. At the start of the battle the Tyranid player had to assign all of the army?s brood creature units to a synapse creature brood in control of a swarm, and had to then note the entire swarms point total based on all the units it contained (Whether they are deployed on the table at the start or not). The opponent receives points, in a Tie Breaker, for the following;
(1) The entire points value of the swarm if all of it?s synapse creature units are dead.
(2) Half the swarms point value if half, or more, of the swarms synapse creature units are dead.
(3) The full points value for all brood creature units not on the table, even if they were not eliminated or went to ground.
(4) Treat independent formations like normal formations in Epic-A.

T1.80 Breath Weapons
Some Tyranid creatures have a bio-plasmic breath attack. This attack uses the WH40k flamer template. Place the narrow end of the template at the creatures mouth and roll to hit any unit that the template touches (Using the same rules as you would for a blast template), except the shooting creature itself of course! The Tyranid player must get as many units from the target formation as possible under the template. If the player fails to do so, and the opponent spots it, the opponent may move the template to any location so long as the small end of the template is still touching the creatures mouth.

T1.90 War Engine Regeneration
Really large Tyranid creatures have small symbiotic creatures that crawl in and around it?s body healing wounds and stemming the flow of vital bodily fluids. To reflect their activities, in the end phase, each Tyranid War Engine that is still alive gets back one of it?s lost DCs, and no it doesn?t grow a new DC if it isn?t damaged, and no if it was killed before the end of the turn it will not ?spring? back to life with one DC on it.

T1.10 Extra Attacks
Please note that if the extra attacks number is in brackets, that represents the total number of extra attacks granted. Thus ?4xMonstorous Claws (+1 attacks)? means the creature has a total of four monstorous claws to use, but they only confer on the unit one extra attack. So a Hydraphant DC-8 with four monstorous claws gets nine attacks (8+1) four of which will be able to use the claws MWTK.

Unit Data changes have been excluded

Jaldon :p

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 7:29 am 
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As for rear areas everyone seems to dance around the warriors but everyone seems to forget the worker bees in the equation :alien:

Something has to be scooping up all this genetic material, even if it is early stage larva that will turn in to warriors later. Also the background speaks of the Nids being capable of genetic alteration, well something besides the front line warrior types must be carrying out this work also.

Last, but by no means least, the Nids moving forward to reinforce the battle areas have to be coming from somewhere, and have to move through a rear area to get to the front.

So, it isn't at all un-reasonable to assume the Nids have a rear area that needs protection.

Jaldon :p





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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 12:01 pm 
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Oh idea.  Isn't there some fluff about the nids making brood hives if their bioships withdraw, so wouldn't they be defended?

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 1:22 pm 
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Jldon I'm confused about your staement in T1.10.

I have always asumed that the 4x gargantuan claws extra attack +1CC TK(1) meant that it gor four lots of TH(1) attacks, since that is how it works in the main book, eg devistators get 2xmissile launchers so get 2 shots.

According to your wording a Hierophant will get 7 attacks 4 of them being TK(1). ?If it suffers two hits, both critical it goes down 5 attacks 2 TK(1). ?This is radically different to other WE which always uses the starting DC for their base number of attacks.

I've read it as 12 attacks 4TK(1), much better value for money.

I have always assumed that the problem with the definition came from the hierodule and Haruspex entries that have y x scything talons assault weapons. but no extra attacks and people assuming that they should have extra atackyCC.

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 5:21 pm 
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I've nothing against the idea of the Tyranids wanting to defend the rear of thier army. There are many reasons spread throughout this thread.

The problem for me is that protecting Blitzkrieg (denying it from the enemy), and gaining "Take and hold", and "Defend the Flag" and to some extend "Hold the Line" are far too easy for the Tyranids given that they can sit on objectives.

It's this defensive playing that is easy for the Tyranids to perform, given the lack of blast markers, unbreakable and spawning.

We need to redefine these goals (maybe not all) so the Tryanid player can't win (or at least finds it very hard to win) by playing defensively.

Scott

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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:13 pm 
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Jaldon I like almost all your changes/clarifications. The spawning modification is very good (though zoanthropes are very easy to spawn using this - I still wonder whether these should not be LV).

I assume you are getting rid of the clause whereby multiple synapse broods can 'share' command (I don't have a problem with this).

I think they I still prefer the W40k regeneration rule (roll a D6 for each point of damage suffered - on a 6 you ?it regenerates). Ie each wound suffered (each DC) will be regenerating, rather than one at a time. I think the WH40k rule would make bio-titans more unpredicatable and scary for opponents if they are uncertain about just how badly they are wounding them. ?I think it fits more with the character of the army, where the opponent is never sure of what is going to pop up next (ie spawning). Plus it is a tried and tested rule mechanic for bugs from 40k.

I am also not sure about your victory point rules - my first impression is that this seems to be bit of a pain in the butt from a book-keeping perspective to have these starting formations with attached VP's, which you then have to keep track of at the end of the game. I have been considering a 'Biomass Victory Point system' - where the objective is just to have as many bugs as you can (swarming all over the table :D ) at the end of the game - ie you just add up the bugs you have on the table at the end of the game. (Formations (inlcuding WE) below half give half strength give half their victory points). Haven't tested this yet though.





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 Post subject: Rules: Tyranids and objectives
PostPosted: Mon Oct 31, 2005 10:21 pm 
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I (naturally) prefer my own version of regeneration.  When you roll a D6 for each remaining DC rather than each point lost.  Since it makes no sence to me why they should regenerate better when they are badly wounded.  Hower Jaldons ruling is the closest to KISS.

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