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** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
pixelgeek
 Post subject: ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 3:53 pm 
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Quote (QuintAan @ 09 2005 Aug.,04:48)
Tactica, I disagree on your interpretation of the written rule. I guess we'll have to get Pixelgeek to confirm what it really means.

As they are not listed in the WE, Titans and aircraft section they are not  a part of that 1/3 limit

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Tactica
 Post subject: ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 4:21 pm 
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QuintAnn - understood that we disagree, however, as written it can only be interpretted one way.

Dysartes - The pesimistic side of me tends to agree with you. As much as he and I do NOT see eye to eye, I really want to give PG the benefit of the doubt. It was discussed time and time again on the old forum, and since the two WE's were as good/better than a SL IG warhound, it seemed logical to put them in with the titan/flyer restrictions. He seemed to agree - though his responses can leave one unsure of his intentions, I agree.

NH - the 0-2 restriction is not enough. If we all want to create war engines that have 2 void shields and three damage capacity plus give them a nice weapon load out - but call them WE instead of Titans - that's fine, but we are just circumventing the Titan restriction rule. That's what OGM and ATML are for - not the BL.

Regarding the Flamer template vs. the blast - the blast is longer than 30cm - unless I'm mistaken. The rules for placing the blast say that only one model/unit has to be within range of all shooting models contributing to the blast. If you have 2 Ferals that are getting a 6 point barrage, they are going to have more than one template to place, and the template's width must be taken into account, further templates can continue to cause havok even further away. In addition, the Feral has a higher potential to cause damage as it's not only ignore cover, but in addition to what the AMTL variant of warhound does NOT have, the Feral has a Macro-Weapon blast. Two of these buggers only make it worse. Furthermore, the additional dice rolled in combat allow for a potential to get a really good roll beyond what a normal warhound can do. The gatling gun is equally good vs. ap and AT targets where the normal warhound is not - its ap3 but at5 make it nowhere near the tank hunter a feral can be.

From someone whom which plays against chaos as much as I play them in epic, I personally feel the feral is under costed and 50 points seems to cheap for the benefit one gets out of these things. 75 points difference would probably be closer to on target.

To change modes a bit: I still don't understand why the banelord is the only warlord class titan that has no chance of blowing up in its crit. The standard seems to be set and this thing forces you to rid it of all of its wounds. No chance to get the luck shot like the other titans.

I'm having a hard time seeing the net reduction in power to the list. I did notice forlorn hope lost the cult marines and helltalon lost the ignore cover, but there was also a 50 point adjustment on the helltalon. The Obliterators wend down by 25 points each and we thought they were amazingly strong at 75 points each - I mean 3x AP/AT/AA 5+, fearless, teleport, RA, etc... and its not a LIGHT VEHICLE? (see Tau thread on the crisis - some seem to think a crisis needs to be LV because an AT shot affects its formation more than an average infantry trooper squad - LOL, but the Obliterator remains infantry??? No balance here whatsoever) The new deamon summoning is going to take some getting used to. I hope its a net reduction in power. I'm glad to see daemons become paid for, but it looks like the daemons in play for a given formation can now continue to grow turn after turn if you don't fire at the formation. It also looks like in most cases, one is going to be able to count on a minimum of 4 deamons per summoning taking the median summoned from 7 to 8 now. The lack of blast markers still amazes me with this list.

I previously and still fear that the power in the chaos list will ultimately turn more people away from the Epic system. I hope I'm being overly paranoid. I can tell you that our group finally wouldn't play against anyone playing a v3.4 list as nobody could beat the list - regardless of who was playing it. We have some renewed interest and hope regarding the v3.5 list. I'm optimistic and don't want to judge the entire list before I've played and played against it a few times, but I can't help but be apprehensive here a bit.

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nealhunt
 Post subject: ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 5:21 pm 
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Furthermore, the additional dice rolled in combat allow for a potential to get a really good roll beyond what a normal warhound can do.


I know a lot of people think this way, but this is a statistical fallacy.

Yes, it can potentially score more hits. However, it also has a greater chance of scoring few or no hits.  Larger numbers of smaller chances just have an inherently greater statistical deviation.  That doesn't make it better or worse on average.


As for points, there is a concept in military planning called the square root rule:

Doubling the firepower of a unit does not double its combat effectiveness because it can still be eliminated just as easily.  Rather than 2x as effective it's SQRT(2)x as effective.  Same for makig something twice as tough, but still packing the same firepower.

The application to a point-based system is obvious and if you start comparing point values for various units you will find that points which are considered balanced generally follow this rule closely.

As far as Warhound/Feral, the only real change is the firepower.  For them to be worth +20% in points as they are currently, the increase in firepower needs to be ~+45%.  For a +30% price (the +75 you are asking for) it would need to have ~+70% over a Warhound.  Undoubtedly, the Feral has significantly more firepower, but it's definitely not more than half again what the Warhound has.

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Tactica
 Post subject: ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
PostPosted: Tue Aug 09, 2005 6:18 pm 
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I know a lot of people think this way, but this is a statistical fallacy.

Yes, it can potentially score more hits. However, it also has a greater chance of scoring few or no hits.  Larger numbers of smaller chances just have an inherently greater statistical deviation.  That doesn't make it better or worse on average.

I'm not in disagreement with you, but the fact that it can happen is the potential for problem. The fact that it can underperform doesn't make it a problem. Only the fact that it can and eventually will overperform. That is not a statistical fallacy, just an extreme result of the potential.

Regarding the math that you provide, in theory I don't disagree. However, there are other variables at play that impact this formation. This is a 6 sided dice game and not a 10 sided dice game, percentile fractions have an interesting affect on the number crunching. Also, your math does not account for the fact that this is an activation based game where amount of firepower/movement per activation is quite relative. It doesn't account for the type of unit we are talking about either. If an IG army requires you to take a company for every two auxilary and you only get 1/3 of your points in titans - those points come at a premium as they allow you to alter your army comp in unique and interesting ways. In a category of unit that is restricted to 1/3 of the army max - it can have a higher value than a typical formation if it's extremely mobile, significantly resiliant, and can deliver significant amount of firepower. Further increases in firepower are potentially more valuable in this limited class of unit by comparison to the normal units in the army. Especially when apposing armies do not have access to the same level of firepower in comparable sized formations/units.

Does all this mean the Feral should be 75 instead of 50 - absolutely not. I've not played against this new 3.5 list, so just saying I have some concerns.

Regards to the blast markers and additional distance you can get out of them compared to a flame template and the macro-weapon ability the Ferals get by comparison to the AMTL lighter weapon variants - I didn't see any response.

Ultimately, if the Feral can have the ignore cover / macro weapon 3bp blast - I don't see why the AMTL warhound can't.

That's a decision for Dysartes and the AMTL guys to mull over though I suppose.

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The_Real_Chris
 Post subject: ** New Update - Black Legion 3.5 available
PostPosted: Mon Aug 29, 2005 12:48 pm 
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I'd say because testing the warhound with it showed it was too powerful. Haven't played the Chaos version but you have to take into account the rest of the army (well, its not as if Ignore Cover MW is rare is it in there? :) ).

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