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Legion 4
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?  Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:08 pm |
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Well it would be an easy fix ... "War Engines can split fire on more than one unit/target ..." 
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nealhunt
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:50 pm |
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There are many issues with splitting fire, mostly related to the BM rules. It probably could have been worked out, but it adds a lot of complexity (at least with respect ot rules verbage and potential FAQs) and would also allow an increased amount of min-maxing with ranged fire that is arguably not justified.
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As far as the CLP, it's not just one speeder unit that allows the titan to fire indirect.
First, it would be silly to only have 1 spotter when the platform could easily support multiple craft.
Second, the upgrade would have to include all the additional tracking and computation components for indirect fire, so having the "dedicated" spotter(s) destroyed might hamper optimal operation but it could still be done in the same manner as ordinary artillery.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 3:52 pm |
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Good points, Neal !
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:08 pm |
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| Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,02:56) | | Quote (dafrca @ 29 2005 June,21:37) | | Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,17:07) | Hi!
Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.
Primarch |
Again, my bad Primarch, I should have slowed down and been clearer in my answer. The point is, the Land Speeder is not the "Unit" in the Formation of One. It is the Titan. If we make the Land Speeder a full "Unit" then we make it a Formation of two, the Titan and it's one weapon (the Land Speeder).
As Jervis had instructed me when I was Champion (and if that has changed then I will drop this) we did not want to have "parts" of the Titan targeted and we did not allow the Titan to split fire because it was one unit. The Landspeeder in this case is a physical representation of the ability that this weapon replacement gives. It should not be targetable any more then the leg, arm, or other weapon is.
dafrca |
Hi!
..than again I dont understand or accept the premise of epic A of not splitting fire between different targets.
I consider that to be a design "cop out". ?
Primarch |
I agree 100% with you, P. I think it is silly not to allow a machine bristling with weapons to fire them at mutiple tar gets.
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:12 pm |
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This also points out one of the differences I saw in the Playtest forum.
Some people wanted to write rules and then fit fluff/minis to the rules. Some wanted to write Fluff and look at minis to figure out how the rules should go.
One of my favorite examples of this was the debate over the secondary weapon for Knights. Some wanted many weapons, others just a few. A couple of arguments I saw were things like:
?But the mini I have has two other small barrels on the left, so it needs more guns??
or
?But there is not a need for those extra weapons, it makes the unit too unbalanced.?
or
?But the fluff says the X weapon can melt stone, so it needs to be a MegaWeapon?
Different starting points caused a lot of mixed final stances.
dafrca
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nealhunt
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:42 pm |
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Yep. It's always a trade off between "realism" (in this case, with respect to the background) and overall play quality.
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Dwarf Supreme
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:06 pm |
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| Quote (Tas @ 30 2005 June,04:21) | Not to be an old fuddy duddy, because I think the general EA rules are very good...
The old Titan rules were far superior. ?The specific targeting rules, differing armour on differing locations, trying to target specific bits, etc was fantastic. ?I dont thnk it slowed down the game much, a few minutes at most maybe, but the extra level of detail was excellent and appreciated by the player I knew.
Whist I can accept that for rank and file players, the generic veriosn is OK, I want - no, NEED - a return to the detailed style version which meshes with EA nicely: an Adeptus Titanicus III if you will, so that that I can have the detail if I want...because I do. |
I have to echo this sentiment. While I do see the current rules for titans an improvement over E40k, the old rules were superior, in my opinion. With my titans, I want to be able to fire at multiple targets; I want to be able to hit specific locations on the enemy's vile titans.  ; I want to be able to use all of the old weapons; I want to field a psy-titan (ok this is a HUGE wish since I didn't even own one, but I'd like to be able to buy one from the archives!). Perhaps the best solution would be advanced rules for veterans that fit in nicely with the E:A rules. Am I wishing for too much? 
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Grimshawl
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:02 pm |
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It all sounds great to me, I too love the old rules, I have simply run low on local players still using the old rules, I like alot about the new rules/ epic A, but it so far has lacked the Majesty of the full Titan Legions box/ rules. Thats one of the reasons I got involved with the AMTLs list playtesting to begin with, to try to recapture the spirit of the older titan rules and all the glory of the titans. the AMTLs list has been alot about compromise and trying to work the older stuff into the new rules set, anyway I'm with you, titans are what originally got me totally hooked on tabletop warfare and the 40k background.
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nealhunt
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 8:12 pm |
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For the record, I have noted several times on the playtest boards that I have serious doubts that it will ever be possible to accurately balance Titan Legion and Gargant Mob lists against the more traditional armies.
I think that more detailed ATIII-style rules that meshed with the current system would be the ideal for playing with WE-heavy forces.
For games involving primarily traditional armies, though, the WE rules add enough detail for variation while remaining smooth enough to maintain relatively sleek game play.
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:52 pm |
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| Quote (nealhunt @ 30 2005 June,12:12) | | For the record, I have noted several times on the playtest boards that I have serious doubts that it will ever be possible to accurately balance Titan Legion and Gargant Mob lists against the more traditional armies. |
You, me, and a few others. 
dafrca
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primarch
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 11:12 pm |
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Hi!
Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?
Under second edition, titans fit in quite well, while there were bugs, titans had their own rules but played well with other units.
Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A?
Primarch
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dafrca
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 3:59 am |
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| Quote (primarch @ 30 2005 June,15:12) | Why is this so? Is it an inherent flaw in the Epic A basic design?
Why can a titan heavy army not be balanced versus a non titan army in epic A? |
Keep in mind this is my opinion and not "fact".
I think it has to do with the lumping of all "Larger then tanks" together into only one category called "War Engine?. Then doing the rules so all War Engines are treated the same.
What EpicA needed was a third category called "Titan" or some such. Thus you could have had rules that apply to Titans only, the way you have rules that are War Engine only today.
If they had done this, then you could have costed the Titans in such a way that they could be in balance with the rest of the units/armies. Why, because it could/would become more of an OGRE style battle. The one (or small number) of very powerful formations against a larger number of weaker formations.
dafrca
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Tas
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Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army? Posted: Fri Jul 01, 2005 4:11 am |
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What you say makes sense Dafrca, and ties in with what we have seen with the evolution of the rules over the past few years as well.
Maybe the third category of "Titan" is the way ahead for AT3. Then Titan class rules (such as specific targeting, to hit location resolution, split fire, Titan Battle honours etc) can be (re)introduced for players who want them.
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