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AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
dafrca
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:00 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,16:48)
Hi!

You used to take the old description on the landing pad literally and required use of a landspeeder that function as a command unit - fully armed.

We felt it better represented what it cost.

Primarch

But the way EpicA works, if the Land Speeder is a full Land Speeder Unit then it could be destroyed and thus now opens up the ability to target that specific unit.

If it is not a "real" Land Speeder" then it is just a miniature representing the ability and thus can not be destroyed in and of itself.

Just my .02

dafrca

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primarch
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:00 am 
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Hi!

Ah, found it. Let me see in my bits box....

...somewhere within the primarchload closet.... :)

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:03 am 
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I love you Master...

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Tas
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:05 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 30 2005 June,10:00)
Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,16:48)
Hi!

You used to take the old description on the landing pad literally and required use of a landspeeder that function as a command unit - fully armed.

We felt it better represented what it cost.

Primarch

But the way EpicA works, if the Land Speeder is a full Land Speeder Unit then it could be destroyed and thus now opens up the ability to target that specific unit.

If it is not a "real" Land Speeder" then it is just a miniature representing the ability and thus can not be destroyed in and of itself.

Just my .02

dafrca


But that IS a realistic tactic dafrca! ?
We do it all the time, its called "Hacking the Shadower"

The idea is to take out the reporting unit so the heavy firepower carrying unit cant find you, or has to close within your weapon range to fire at you, giving you counterfire options

It means your Forward Observer has to be sneaky - ie do the REAL recon thing!




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primarch
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 1:07 am 
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Hi!

Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.

Primarch

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dafrca
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:33 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 29 2005 June,17:05)
Quote (dafrca @ 30 2005 June,10:00)

But the way EpicA works, if the Land Speeder is a full Land Speeder Unit then it could be destroyed and thus now opens up the ability to target that specific unit.

If it is not a "real" Land Speeder" then it is just a miniature representing the ability and thus can not be destroyed in and of itself.


But that IS a realistic tactic dafrca! ?

I am sorry, because I was unclear you missed the point. My Bad.

Jervis did not want us to make it so you could target specific Titan "parts". The item you bought was the platform and it's benefit. Thus if you make it so I can target the Speeder, why can't I target the Gattling Blaster, or the Left Leg. See? The point is, the Speeder needs to be a part of the Titan, not a unit in a formation of two (Titan and Speeder).

Sorry, I was answering before I took the time to be clear.

dafrca

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dafrca
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:37 am 
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Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,17:07)
Hi!

Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.

Primarch

Again, my bad Primarch, I should have slowed down and been clearer in my answer. The point is, the Land Speeder is not the "Unit" in the Formation of One. It is the Titan. If we make the Land Speeder a full "Unit" then we make it a Formation of two, the Titan and it's one weapon (the Land Speeder).

As Jervis had instructed me when I was Champion (and if that has changed then I will drop this) we did not want to have "parts" of the Titan targeted and we did not allow the Titan to split fire because it was one unit. The Landspeeder in this case is a physical representation of the ability that this weapon replacement gives. It should not be targetable any more then the leg, arm, or other weapon is.

dafrca

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primarch
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:55 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 29 2005 June,21:37)
Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,17:07)
Hi!

Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.

Primarch

Again, my bad Primarch, I should have slowed down and been clearer in my answer. The point is, the Land Speeder is not the "Unit" in the Formation of One. It is the Titan. If we make the Land Speeder a full "Unit" then we make it a Formation of two, the Titan and it's one weapon (the Land Speeder).

As Jervis had instructed me when I was Champion (and if that has changed then I will drop this) we did not want to have "parts" of the Titan targeted and we did not allow the Titan to split fire because it was one unit. The Landspeeder in this case is a physical representation of the ability that this weapon replacement gives. It should not be targetable any more then the leg, arm, or other weapon is.

dafrca

Hi!

But why cant you shoot off parts and bits off a titan?

Its not a regular unit. Its a lumbering monster that you may not be able to destroy, but you can incapacitate it by shooting off the "important" parts.

Sometimes I think Jervis goes out of his way to "bury" any vestige of older epic rules....  :(

Primarch

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primarch
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 2:56 am 
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Quote (dafrca @ 29 2005 June,21:37)
Quote (primarch @ 29 2005 June,17:07)
Hi!

Since its a command unit under netepic it has many advantages, but it IS a valid target to be shot at and destroyed.

Primarch

Again, my bad Primarch, I should have slowed down and been clearer in my answer. The point is, the Land Speeder is not the "Unit" in the Formation of One. It is the Titan. If we make the Land Speeder a full "Unit" then we make it a Formation of two, the Titan and it's one weapon (the Land Speeder).

As Jervis had instructed me when I was Champion (and if that has changed then I will drop this) we did not want to have "parts" of the Titan targeted and we did not allow the Titan to split fire because it was one unit. The Landspeeder in this case is a physical representation of the ability that this weapon replacement gives. It should not be targetable any more then the leg, arm, or other weapon is.

dafrca

Hi!

..than again I dont understand or accept the premise of epic A of not splitting fire between different targets.

I consider that to be a design "cop out".  :L

Primarch

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Tas
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 4:21 am 
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Not to be an old fuddy duddy, because I think the general EA rules are very good...

The old Titan rules were far superior.  The specific targeting rules, differing armour on differing locations, trying to target specific bits, etc was fantastic.  I dont thnk it slowed down the game much, a few minutes at most maybe, but the extra level of detail was excellent and appreciated by the player I knew.

Whist I can accept that for rank and file players, the generic veriosn is OK, I want - no, NEED - a return to the detailed style version which meshes with EA nicely: an Adeptus Titanicus III if you will, so that that I can have the detail if I want...because I do.

Having said all that, I can understand that JJ had a "rule" about the Titan being a whole and not being able to selectively target bits.  Its good to see that he was trying to maintain integrity of the rules, rather than having all those "exceptions" that ended up confusing all SM2 players.

However, while all thse bits and weapons are part of a titan, the landspeeder is clearly a seperatel unit, operating out front, doing a different job.

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Legion 4
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 5:57 am 
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Yes, Jervis specifically mentions why he/they don't let units split fire in the FAQ section of the E:A rules, IIRC ... It had some merit and generally, E:A is a pretty good piece of work ! And as I said before, we will use most of it (like 85%) as the basis for our rules ...   :D

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dafrca
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:21 am 
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Tas & Primarch,

I can not and will not try and defend his point of view. I just was trying to explain why it would work better as a no armed "marker" because of the desires of the rules. :(

Fact is, I argued for split fire and I thought we should use the Gargant List and the AMTL list as conduits to introduce the ATII he spoke of doing. Sad to say he did not accept the split fire and later he did not want to have complex Titan rules.

So from my point of view it became a case of accepting what was and working within that to make the rules and lists the best they could be.

dafrca

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Tas
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 6:54 am 
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I can not and will not try and defend his point of view. I just was trying to explain why it would work better as a no armed "marker" because of the desires of the rules.


Understood, acknowledged and appreciated.

Its good to hear how these things evolved from an "insider's view".  I had no doubt that you represented the view of 90% of the players here.  

Maybe what is needed are some "Advanced EA" rules for purists like us...

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dafrca
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:03 am 
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Quote (Tas @ 29 2005 June,22:54)
Maybe what is needed are some "Advanced EA" rules for purists like us...

Agreed. We even tried to get them to think about the ATII rules that have been spoken about. Those would have much more "refined" rules for Titans and their "add ons".

As the rules wrok now, I could model the Recon Land Speeder onto the Titan or not have one at all. The Carapace Landing Pad is what you are buying. The Recon Land Speeder as a mini is not even needed on the table. In point of fact, in this version of the game, the Recon Land Speeder is not even a real ?Unit? at all.

And do not even get me started on the whole Weapons variations issue.  :p

dafrca

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Tas
 Post subject: AMTL: Has anyone tried the Titan Army?
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 7:08 am 
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I can imagine that the whole issue would hve been very frustrating for you, trying to preserve the glory days of detal vs the dumbing down of the rules for a new and less-informed audience

(who wont BECOME informed because of the lack of support to EA, but thats a seperate issue altogether...)

All I can say is that I appreciate you representing us and thanks for your time in doing so :)

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