Guys, as with the other thread, once we clarify that the intent of the "screen from behind" FAQ is in relation to non-intermingled units, I think this is pretty clear. Geometrically speaking, there must necessarily be some way to enter the target ZoC prior to entering the ZoC of any non-intermingled scout unit. Doing so effectively puts the scouts in the "screen from behind" position.


If the screening formation can be intermingled (or any other formation, for that matter), they must be intermingled in order to enter their ZoC.

If the screening units cannot be intermingled, the target can be attacked by CC, including aircraft landing on them.

I thought you could only barge units from the fm you were assaulting?

_________________

That's correct. An air assault would only be barging the target formation.

Because the air-ground unit type transition is completely goofy mechanically. There's just no way to handle it that doesn't result in having ad hoc, situation-specific rules to cover weirdness.

Sorry guys, I have always understood that Air-transports are able to 'barge' along with any other WE, by putting them partially over the target formation and moving units out from under the model.

Are you suggesting otherwise?

nope - I think you have this correctly Ginger.

I have been on the receiving end of hundreds of barging air assaults form Orks, Eldar and Marines. Never thought it wrong at all.

My tactics so far have been to weather the punch, tear out some of my increasingly sparse hair, whining about how op space marines are.

And then commence to shoot the CRAP out of the silly buggers now loafing right in front of a fantazillion of my gun barrels, and neatly win the game ...

_________________
Let there be code.

Only on the dismount.

For a history of this ruling, picture a time when Deathstrike Missile Launchers had the "no line of sight" note instead of the Indirect Fire special ability. Now picture a DS on Overwatch as an enemy aircraft loaded for assault comes onto the board. If the DS can fire before troops dismount, it's basically a 2+ autokill, ultimate air defense (and for ~800 points of SMs, you better believe people were firing both missiles to avoid the risk of a 1).

The result was Jervis' FAQ stating that for purposes of OW, only normal ground moves apply as a trigger, because he felt that was a clarification/correction he could make without directly contradicting the RAW.


No, not at all. There are only 2 conditions that allow you to enter the ZoC of more than one formation - normal intermingling, and a "screen from behind" situation. That's it.

I don't know why this "simultaneously entering multiple formation ZoCs" stuff was raised, but it is irrelevant. There is absolutely no situation where simultaneously entering multiple ZoCs has any bearing on allowing you to enter the ZoC of more than one formation.


No. The barging rules say you have to place the models as close as possible to where they were. There's little chance that would break coherency. In the extreme situation where it did break coherency, the formation would not be partially auto-destroyed. It would have to choose between countercharging which would invoke the formation coherency limits and trigger auto-kills or staying in place, which sucks, but it still a choice.

That's no different than any other WE which can theoretically barge part of one formation out of coherency.


The ruling is not caused by entering ZoC simultaneously.


Not sure what you mean by this.

Steve54 has already stated that simultaneous entering of ZofC will not be allowed at FSA (or other E-UK events).

The only way to enter a ZofC of a formation that is not being assaulted is if it overlaps (from behind or side) one being assaulted and the target units ZofC is entered first.

I suppose it could be possible for a WE to engage a formation that has a second,third and fourth formation with overlapping ZofC's on the target formation who's ZofC are entered after entering the target formations ZofC first and then survive the assault and support fire to just sit there in multiple ZofC after the Engage action (hope thats clear).

But I suppose it would be rare for that situation to arise.

AAAARGH!!!!! NO! There is another condition. The non-engaged formation cannot be in position to be intermingled.

That's a critical restriction which most of this thread seems intent on ignoring. Without it, there is no "screen from behind" situation and you cannot enter the non-engaged formation's ZoC.

i never said aircraft arent moving,

i said they cannot possibly barge without first having landed (because until that time they are aircraft, and aircraft ignore all units, which means they cannot move over them, a prerequisite for barging)
and then, having landed, they become a 0cm move unit that cannot possibly move over an enemy unit with which to barge them.
it can land in contact with a unit, sure, but it cannot come into contact with a unit and then continue to move, which is what is required to barge.

so, i should clarify. aircraft can indeed barge... if they land on a road and then next turn engage in an assault. otherwise, the only time they can pass across a unit is when they are ignoring them. the "war engines can barge" rule does not trump the "aircraft ignore all other units" rule any more than the passage "any hit that would affect an armoured vehicle can affect a war engine" trumps the "Ground units may only shoot at aircraft when making a flak attack" (note that "being an aircraft" is not in the list of exceptions to the rule where all shots at WE are treated like shots against AV)

the "if an aircraft landed on me i'd get out of the way" arguement rather ignores the fact that aircraft cannot land on units without making an assault on them in the process. they certainly cannot barge units they're not assaulting, and yet, these units would equally "get out of the way"
take, for instance, a marine lander. it is clearly more than 5CM long, so it can easily position itself in such a way that landing in contact with a unit from the formation it is assaulting will also bring it into contact with a non-intermingled unit that it is not assaulting. and yet, only the unit it is assaulting has any requirement to move out of the way. even ignoring the ZOC issue, that is clearly not handled in the rules as a "well it can barge anyway"
meanwhile, as another nail in that particular arguement, would you not get out of the way of a leman russ? they cant barge, and there are (or were) plenty of people out there who would argue that their real world counterparts certainly can


if you (mis)interpret the rules to allow aircraft barging, there is absolutely nothing to say that they can only barge units they directly stop on top of, that is certainly not a part of the regular barging rules, so why would it apply to aircraft? it's not written anywhere, there are no listed exceptions, a war engine can barge as long as it has movement left, and hasnt contacted an enemy AV, WE, or a piece of impassable terrain.

at which point, an aircraft is entirely capable of barging a unit in the formation (quite selectively i might add, given that in any other instance, including it seems, its own whim, it ignores them) and then continues to fly around whereever it wants before landing, and draging the unit it barged with it. so what is to stop a thunderhawk from flying across the table, grabbing the enemy supreme commander and two other friends, then flying back across the table to where the rest of the marine army is waiting to lend supporting fire to the incredibly lopsided clipping assault that just occurred?

as to the overwatch thing, it occurs when a unit has finished a parcel of its "movements" which allows you to overwatch at a formation before it unloads troops. for reasons unknown, it was decided that aircraft approach moves do not trigger overwatch, despite there being nothing in the rulebook to this effect (and infact, every part of the written rules say the opposite. the FAQ even suggests otherwise when it explains that even a unit initiating an action which includes a move portion (such as initiating an assault) will trigger overwatch, regardless of if the unit in question actually moves or even can do so.
if you're in overwatch, and a plane lands in front of you, you cannot shoot it, because it didnt stop 'moving' it stopped flying, and thats a totally different thing. the situation with deathstrikes was resolved years ago, it's no longer a problem, so that concern is gone, aircraft can go back to actually following the rules


In the end, the FAQ has to be wrong for one simple reason. it says two things that contradict each other.
in such an instance, there are three possible explainations.
the first, is that one answer is wrong.
the second, is that the other answer is wrong.
the third, is that both answers are wrong.
there is no fourth 'both answers are correct' option. they may have existed in a state of quantum entanglement where they where both correct (and both wrong) at the same time, but now that they have been observed, they can no longer exist superpositioned over each other.

personally i think that both answers are wrong, as detailed above, but the fact that one of them has to be should not be in dispute here.

_________________
~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~