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Assault & CC hits

 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Thu Oct 05, 2006 3:56 pm 
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the hits are allocated by normal rules.
So firefight attacks cannot hit base to base contact and close
combat attacks hits as ...


That's not how normal attacks are allocated.  FF and CC hits are not distinguished at all for normal units (outside MWCC).  In normal allocation FF hits can hit units in base contact and CC hits can be allocated to units outside CC.

If you've been playing it that way, I definitely understand the confusion.

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 7:51 am 
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(nealhunt @ Oct. 05 2006,15:56)
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FF and CC hits are not distinguished at all for normal units (outside MWCC). ?In normal allocation FF hits can hit units in base contact and CC hits can be allocated to units outside CC.

Could you tell me where in the rules this is said. It's just to be able to clarify the point during our next tournament as we used to allocate CC hits only against units in CC and FF against all units (<=15cm).

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 10:23 am 
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Although somewhat counter-intuitive if you're used to other gaming systems, by playing with the 'Rules As Written', there's no exception that states hits cannot spread outside of CC range into FF, or vice versa, thus since it doesn't say you're not allowed to do it, you can. :)

But as I said, it's rather counter-intuitive and could do with a sentance making it explicit.

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 1:57 pm 
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Francois:  As Hena posted.  No distinction is made between "CC hits" and "FF hits" in the allocation.  They are just hits.  I can't point to a place where it says "you can do it."  It just never says they are tracked separately.

There's a parallel with the allocation rules for shooting hits, too.  You don't track hits by the specific unit that scored them and then determine whether they are in range/LoS from the unit.  You just pool the hits and assign them and the target is a legitimate target for any of the shooting units it can be assigned a hit.

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:11 pm 
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What about hits that have come from a unit that's undertaking Supporting Fire (say from the other side of the engagement, so it's hitting the 'rear' of the enemy formation from the perspective of the main friendly unit).

I've tended to play this situation as two seperate events of shooting, allocating hits from the nearest-to-farthest for each formation, so keeping a seperate pool of hits recorded as coming from each direction.

Was this incorrect?





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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Fri Oct 06, 2006 2:40 pm 
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(Evil and Chaos @ Oct. 06 2006,14:11)
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What about hits that have come from a unit that's undertaking Supporting Fire (say from the other side of the engagement, so it's hitting the 'rear' of the enemy formation from the perspective of the main friendly unit).

I've tended to play this situation as two seperate events of shooting, allocating hits from the nearest-to-farthest for each formation, so keeping a seperate pool of hits recorded as coming from each direction.

Was this incorrect?

That's correct.  1.12.5 states that the participants in the assault make all their to-hit, allocation, and armor saves, then 1.12.6 gives supporting fire as a separate step.  As you say, 2 separate events.

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 3:30 pm 
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(Hena @ Oct. 06 2006,08:08)
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(fbruntz @ Oct. 06 2006,09:51)
QUOTE
Could you tell me where in the rules this is said. It's just to be able to clarify the point during our next tournament as we used to allocate CC hits only against units in CC and FF against all units (<=15cm).

Experimental rules write in p.3
1.12.5 Resolve Assault (change)
All units have two assault values: a close combat value and a firefight value. Units that
are in base-to-base contact with the enemy use the close combat value, while units that
are not in base contact but are within 15cm and have a line of fire to the enemy can use
their firefight value.
Units that are armed only with close combat weapons and do not
have any small arms or other ranged weapons may only attack if in base contact with the
enemy.

Roll 1D6 for each unit that may attack. Note that Blast markers do not suppress units
from formations involved in an assault - it is assumed that the proximity of the enemy
means that everyone joins in! Compare the dice roll to the unit's close combat value if
it's in contact with the enemy, or its firefight value if it's within 15cm of the enemy but
not in base contact. If the dice roll is equal to or greater than the relevant value, then a hit
is scored on the enemy.
No modifiers ever apply to these dice rolls.

Each player allocates the hits and make saving throws in the same manner as they would
when allocating hits from shooting (see Experimental Hit Allocation below). Hits may
only be allocated to units that were directly engaged in the combat (ie, that belonged to
the attacking or defending formation and which were within 15cms of the enemy after
charge and counter-charge moves were completed).


Relevant bits bolded. All hits are pooled and thus the matter of causing hit (cc or ff) is no longer present. But as this thread shows, my answers can be wrong :D.

Salut ? tous,

This point is still not clear for me...  :blush:

I've underlined a reference in the Hena post. In the Experimental Hit Allocation, it is said that only units in range can suffer hits. In an assault, attacks from CC are only in range of the units in contact : so CC hits and FF hits should be differenciated, shouldn't they?

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 5:56 pm 
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Zombie Thread?

Check out the latest in this doc:

http://www.tacticalwargames.net/cgi-bin....t=10705

Buried somewhere in there is an even newer experimental rule for assaults. It should be more clearly worded than the last.






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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Mon Oct 08, 2007 10:32 pm 
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Salut fbruntz

What you describe is a common misconception between combat factors used to 'generate' hits and the way the hits are then 'allocated' or spread around the enemy formation.

CC and FF provide the combat factors of each unit, and are used to determine how many hits are generated. However, normally all the hits are "pooled" together and allocated from front to back, being spread evenly across all enemy units in the assault zone (within 15 cms). In effect, it is therefore quite possible for CC hits to be allocated to a unit that is not in Base to Base contact etc.

The experimental assault rules affect support fire rather than the above process, requiring at least one attacking unit to survive the combat before the supporting formations take part.

(Note, Macro Weapons, War Engines and Titan killer weapons do differ slightly from the above, so you will need to check them out)

As Napoleon might have said "Chaque soldat a quelque sixes dans son sac ? dos"

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:24 pm 
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Hi!
This subject is being discussed a lot on the french forum. What I can say is that we're all a bit confused.

Concerning experimental rules,let's take an example:
- A warlock titan and 6 guardians are engaged by a formation of 8 orks.
- 4 orks are in Btb with the titan, the bpyz and guardians are in FF.
-The titan  chooses to use all its attacks in CC.
- The titan scores 4 hits, the guardians scores 4 too.

Another point concerns shields. It seems that the defender chooses the order in which hits are allocated and resolved. So can choose to resolve TK hit first ( removing shields ), and then normal hits ( agains which he'll have a save )?

As the defender chooses how hits are allocated, he can choose to allocate the hits from the guardians first on the ork in BtB, and then allocating the titan CC hits. As these hits must be allocated in CC, the 4 orks in BtB get 4 hits, and the other 4 nothing...

By the way, I think the confusion is due to the fact that all the rules concerning hit allocation are not in the same place. So it is easy to forget something. A summary of these rules would be great ( well we've started to do that, but it would fit well in a handbook. Cheers Marconz!:) )

Cheers and thanks!


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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:04 pm 
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Thurse:  The "defender decides hits" is from the experimental rules and is now virtually universally rejected.  If you are using it, I highly recommend you stop.  It leads to manipulation, confusion, and generally poor results exactly like you describe.

Under either the book rules, or the "Net EA" modifications, the hits would be allocated one to each Ork - 4 from the titan to the 4 units in base contact and the hits from the Guardians to the remaining units.

Also in both the book rules and the "Net EA" modifications, MW/TK shots are applied after normal hits in a separate round of allocation.  AT fire will strip shields, then MW/TK hits may be allocated.

The procedures for applying hits are the same in both ranged fire and assault.  The only exceptions are due to the nature of assaults.  The concepts are exactly the same:

Apply hits closest to farthest.  
If order of application makes a difference, apply so the greatest number of enemy units are hit.  
MW/TK are applied last in a separate round.

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 Post subject: Assault & CC hits
PostPosted: Tue Oct 09, 2007 5:34 pm 
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Thanks for the the answer.
We've been playing with the full experimental rules with "common sense" to avoid the situation I described. But we'll try the Net EA rules ( By the way great job for these papers )


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