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Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight

 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:31 pm 
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I just joined the forum, 900th member, this is my first post.

After a long absence from Epic (a year?), I'll be playing my marine army against Steel Legion tonight. Last time I dropped, teleported, and air assaulted most of my army, destroying 1/3 of his army before it could do anything. Tonight, I'll be taking a "mud marine" style list, and within a few days I'll let you know how everything went.

So here's what I'll be using (using the proposed Space Marine cost and stat adjustments):

Battle Company:
Tactical Det, Force Commander, Razorback - 425
Tactical Det, Captain, Razorback, Hunter - 450
Devastator Det, Razorback, Hunter - 350
Assault Det, Chaplain - 225

Support Formations:
Terminator Det, Chaplain - 400
Scout Det - 150
Land Raider Det - 375
Land Raider Det - 375
Land Raider Det - 375
Predator Annihilator Det, Hunter - 350
Whirlwind Det - 300
Landspeeder Det, 1 Typhoon - 225

I expect to see a Regimental HQ, a mech infantry company, a Leman Russ company, an Artillery Company, a Warlord, 3 Baneblades, and Stormtroopers in Valkyries. Possibly a second Leman Russ Company.

I'm not sure how well 12 Land Raiders will perform, but they'll have no end of targets.






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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 9:36 pm 
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Welcome aboard, Warpriest!  :cool:

I look forward to your BatRep.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:00 pm 
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I just found out my opponent for tonight can't make it, so it's rescheduled for tomorrow.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:18 pm 
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Bummer.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Thu Dec 07, 2006 10:42 pm 
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I think I'd put the Hunters with the armor as much as possible without creating multiple BTS targets.

With that many points it will be hard to avoid a Warlord titan, so you'll have to deal with it somehow.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Fri Dec 08, 2006 2:50 am 
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It does bother me that the Force Commander is in the BTS right now. If I switch that hunter to the Predators, the Captain's Tacticals become the BTS. I could switch that hunter to a Land Raider detachment.

So would it be better for the tacticals to be the BTS, or 1 of the Land Raiders? I'm expecting the Land Raiders will be priority targets for him.

I'll edit the original list.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 7:58 am 
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We played last night. It was a pretty bloody battle for the marines, and very close.

He used:
Regimental HQ - 500
Mechanized Infantry - 400
Mechanized Infantry - 400
Tank Company w/ Vanquisher - 650
Tank Company w/ Vanquisher - 650
SHT w/ Baneblades - 500
Sentinel Squadron - 100
Sentinel Squadron - 100
Storm Trooper Platoon w/ Valkyries - 350
Storm Trooper Platoon w/ Valkyries - 350

And now typing up this list, I see a major mistake that was made during the game: he told me his BTS was the Baneblades.

Setup
The board was pretty symmetrical, with 8 or 10 buildings on my right, covering most of the ground between DZs, with a road running through the middle. A few hills were to the right of the town. A large hill was in the center of the board, with a few forests to the left.

His blitz was in the center, mine was to the right of the road through the town. M objectives were placed on a crossroads in the town, and one between the large hill and a forest to the left. He placed his objectives on a building near my blitz, and a nearby hill, making a 40cm triangle with the three.

My speeders and scouts garrisoned, setting up near the center of the town. He garrisoned Sentinels and Stormtroopers on my left on the opposite side of a forest from my DZ, and the other Sentinels and Stormtroopers in the town near the crossroads.

MY forces were deployed from left to right: Land Raiders 1, Tactical 2 (w/ Captain), Land Raiders 2, Predators, Devastators, Landraiders on the road withTactical 1 (with FC) behind them, the Whirlwinds to their right in front of the blitz, and the Assault to their right.

He deployed from left to right: Mech Inf 1, Tanks 1, Baneblades, Tanks 2, Mech Inf 2. He got 3 commisars, delpoyed with HQ, Baneblades, and Tanks 1.

1st Turn:
Though I warned him about starting the stormtroopers within their Valkyries to start while being so close to my lines, he took the risk anyway. I won initiative, and had Land Raiders 2 move up and fire at them, kiling 1 Valk. and 1 stand. Not wanting them to escape, the Predators retained, doubled to get to a good firing spot, then made up for the LR's anemic rolling, killing the remaining 3 Valks, leaving 2 Storm troopers alive, who promptly retreated into the woods. Tanks 1 advanced and completely destroyed the Predators and Hunter with just their battlecannons. I knew they were exposed and would take some fire, but that was just ridiculous. Worried about my speeders, he retained with Tanks 2, moved into the town, and got LOS to 3 of them, and destroyed them. The remaining two hid behind a builing on the right side of town. My scouts moved into the middle of the city near the objective on the crossroads, and fired on the nearby Sentinels, killing all but one who then retreated. His Baneblades advanced and took some long range shots at Land Raiders 2, doing no damage. The Whirlwinds fired on his other Stormtrooper formation, doing no damage. The stormtroopers then failed their activation, and marshalled. The Assault det moved into a building near Tanks 2. Mech Inf 2 then moved up and fired at them for no damage. The devastators doubled to the top of the central hill, and fired on the Baneblades, actually damaging the Commisar's tank. Tactical 2 doubled to the left of the Devastators, contesting an objective, and fired at the Baneblades causing a 3rd BM. At some point Land Raider 1 moved up and destroyed 3 of Sentinels 1. Mech Inf 1 doubled to the hill in fron of the devastators, disembarked, and fired on the Devastators, killing 2 stands. Land Raider 3 and Tactical 1 moved up into theleft edge of the city, and fired on Mech Inf 1, doing some damage and causing a bunch of BMs.

Everything but the speeders rallied. His Baneblades got rid of all 3 BMs, making my planned Terminator assault more chancy.

Round 2
I was explaing to some spectators how the game worked, starting with the strategy roll. As I lost initiative, I realized I forgot to place my Terminators behind the Baneblades for some crossfiring and an assault. It was probably for the best, since Tanks 1 was nearby.

Tanks 1 started the carnage, moving to my left, and firing on Land Raiders 1, completely destroying them, and leaving his Baneblades with nothing around them. The Whirlwinds continued the slaughter, destroying half of Mech Inf 1, who broke and retreated over behind Tanks 1. The Baneblades fired at Tactical 2, destroying a Rhino and a marine. Stormtroopers 2 failed to act again, and marshalled again. Tactical 1 doubled almost to his board edge, and desembarked behind his the Baneblades. Mech Inf 2 stayed in the Chimeras and fired at the Assault Det, giving them a blast marker. The scouts fired at Tanks 2, and I explained why to the 2 guys watching, saying it would be easier for the Assault det to engage, and would get +2 to the resolution because of it. Having telegraphed my move to him, he moved a surviving Sentinel up and fired on the Assault Det, for a second blast marker. So much for the +2. Hoping for a miracle, they assualted anyway, killing 1 tank before dying to a man. Tanks 2 then failed their initiative, and did nothing that I remember. The Devastators and Land Raider 2 all fired at the Baneblades, for 1 more damage to the Commisar's tank and 3 more blast markers. His 2 Storm troopers that had been hiding in the woods jumped out and fired on Tactical 2, destoying a vehicle. Tactical 2 returned fire with the 2 units no suppressed, and broke the Storm troopers again. The 2 Speeders moved over to the building with the other objective near my blitz. At some point Land Raider 3 doubled over in front of Tactical 2 and fired on the Baneblades, no damage.

All but the storm troopers rallied. The Baneblades shed their 3 BMs again.

Turn 3.
The Terminators telport in behind the Baneblades. I was determined to destroy them because he had told me they were the BTS objective. If I could do this and keep the objectives I had, I would win the game as long as he didn't destroy Tactical 2 (my BTS) and take either my Blitz or the second objective.

Land Raider 2 went first (they were nearest to Tank 1 and I didn't want to waste their activation if they got destoyed by them), and fired on the Baneblades, no damage, even with a crossfire. I retained and combine assaulted with Tactical 1 and the Terminators. Two tanks were destroyed, leaving the Commisar with 1 damage left, while Tactical 1 took 3 casulaties. The Ciommisar retreated over to my left, near Mech Inf 1. His Leman Russes doubled around a forest, and fired on Tactical 2 (my BTS). They had previously moved in among the Land Raiders and all had cover. All but 3 stands were killed, though they weren't broken. Tanks 2 doubled to the hill objective near my blitz, and destroyed all the Whirlwinds that were stationed by my blitz. I moved my 2 landspeeders to picket around my blitz, preventing his Storm Troopers from marching to claim it. However, he could still move them to take the other objective on the nearby building. So my Devastators retained and sustain fired at his Storm Troopers. The Hunter and Razorback each killed a Valkyrie, and all 4 storm troopers failed their save, breaking the formation. Mech Inf 2 advanced near the scouts holding the crossroads objective and shot at them, but did no damage.

So at this point I had Blitz, Take and Hold, and Break their Spirit (or so we thought...). He had none. At the time we thought he had 1, but it was pretty late, so we weren't thinking straight apparently.

I had lost a Land Raider Detachment, the Assault Detachment, the Predators, and the Whirlwinds, 3 speeders, most of a Tactical detachment, 3 land speeders, plus 50% casualties to the Scouts, Devastators, and Tactical 1. He lost his Baneblades, half of Mech inf 1, most of his Storm troopers, and most of his Sentinels. I have no idea what his HQ did, I don't remember them doing anything at all. I think Mech Inf 2 was actually his HQ, and he forgot to deploy his 2nd infantry.

It was a tense and bloody (for the marines at least) game, that came down to a Hunter and a Razorback killing 2 Valkyries, and 10 Leman Russes failing to kill 5 tactical stands, a Rhino, and a Hunter.

Marines heavy on armor can do alright, but they still need to make use of their high mobility and get into assault. The Land Raiders really didn't do much other than give out blast markers, and look threatening. I'll need to play a few more games when we've both gotten used to the rules again to get a better idea of how well the list can do.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Sun Dec 10, 2006 8:08 am 
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Here's a summary of the above for everyone who doesn't feel like wading through all that.

I left the objectives on my side very lightly defended, and headed straight up the middle with my heaviest formations to take his blitz objective, and kill his Baneblades (my opponent told me they were the BTS). He left his Baneblades in the center, not moving far from the deployment zone, while his tanks and infantry went around my flanks. I took my objectives before he could take his, and I suffered massive casualties doing so. His Leman Russes mostly obliterated whatever they shot at, and I never bothered even trying to attack them. My scouts took and held an objective in the middle of a town, suffering minimal casualties while being surrounded.

I won 3-0, though it was really 2-0 because of the BTS misunderstanding. I lost 4 full formations to his 1, all but my remaininf Land Raiders suffered major casualties, he had several formations that suffered major casulaties.

In the end, the marines' speed and willingness to ignore casulaites won the day.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:28 pm 
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It's a tough call, but I'd go with 375. 400 is too much, 350 might be getting too close to Predators. I think debating over 25 points is a little pointless anyway, since in most tournament sized lists, you'd have at most 1 detachment of Land Raiders. Saving 25 points would get you a Razorback. Hardly game changing.

I think to make them just right, they need a speed boost to 30cm. This would let them keep up with everything else in the army, and make their short range (for a main battle tank) easier to live with.

There were several times during the game where I felt limited in what they could do because of their slower speed. An extra 5 cms (or 10 with a double move) would have made a big difference, allowing them to move into a much more threatening position, and make up for their low range. As it was they were never quite fast enough to be of use.

I'll probably take the same list next time and try them out with speed 30.

I would change the points for the Hunter, dropping it to 50. It's like a lascannon Razorback (25), but without transport capability and an AA attack, and extra range. I think these differences should double instead of triple the points cost. This could easily net a marine army 75 - 100 points in a typical game, which is enough to matter.


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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:09 pm 
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Sounds like it was a good game. It's fortunate that you won anyway, despite being told the wrong BTS objective, especially since he really had two BTS formations.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 4:23 pm 
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I agree on the Hunter points change.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:35 pm 
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I would change the points for the Hunter, dropping it to 50. It's like a lascannon Razorback (25), but without transport capability and an AA attack, and extra range. I think these differences should double instead of triple the points cost.


Do you play much with air cover?  There was none to speak of in this game, but 60cm AA4+ looks really good when the enemy has aircraft.  Due to range/overlapping fields of fire, I've found they do a very good job of denying targets to aircraft.  In a game that actually uses aircraft, comparing them to Razorbacks just doesn't work.

Hunters are one of those units that multiply in ability as you take more of them.  With multiple Hunters spread out across many formations it becomes very difficult to suppress them.  Their long range means you have a lot of overlapping fields of fire.  1-2 of them... yeah, they suck because they can be suppressed down in range pretty easily.  OTOH, with 3-4 of them they give a lot of AA protection if you're playing marines in close, inter-supporting positions like you are supposed to.  300 points for 4 sounds like a lot but I think they are competitive against IG Hydras for their actual in-game effects.

At 50 points they would be a no-brainer, limited only by the number of formations allowed to take them.  Something like 4-6 SM formations in echelon at a reasonable interval would mean any aircraft coming in would be subject to 3-4 AA4+ attacks.  Not to mention that if the Marines took Tbolts they would be able to hit targets under a huge area without fear of interception.  For 200-300 points, that's awfully good.

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 Post subject: Space Marines vs Steel Legion tonight
PostPosted: Mon Dec 11, 2006 5:56 pm 
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I've been under the impression that there are modifications to the aircraft rules being mulled over to make aircraft more effective / survivable versus AA anyway?

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