The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... |
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dafrca
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up...  Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:41 am |
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Location: Burbank, CA, USA
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Bottom line is... GW background for the marines is just suspect 
All other things being as they are, the Marine fluff just does not add up.
dafrca
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Mojarn Piett
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:46 am |
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Location: Finland
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GW fluff in entirety does not add up. It has been changed so many times they themselves don't have a clue anymore. 
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Haarken
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 11:41 am |
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Seems like i've opened a can of worms...
L4- I'm familiar with some military organisation and yeah I figured that chapters were more like regiments and at that more like airborne/ranger/marine regiments. The concept of not occupying an area is still a little alien to me, i started off my military education in the napoleonic period where you had an entire army in a field, never mind a regiment and where there was definite unit cohesion. Since then i've started reading more modern accounts of war, WWII, Korea, Vietnam and I think sometimes it's hard to remember that regiments dont all stand in a line and wait for the enemy to charge. Still I get the point that marines shouldn't be applying napoleonic tactics but modern day tactics... I just guess that someone should tell the people who draw the artwork.
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vanvlak
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 12:32 pm |
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I subscribe to Warmaster's view - nice to see it as a 'historian's license' with the lore of 1000 chapters of 1000 men. There are far more, anyway - even GW oficially states that it is unknown how many Black Templars there are, and that there could be more than a 1000 in the several crusades they are on. 
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netepic
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 2:19 pm |
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I have always thought that 10k was a good number for a chapter... a thousand in each company and you have enough men to make a difference on a planet.
Mind you - there are only 400 SAS and they certainly make a difference when applied to a warzone, and they haven't been deployed in force since WW2. 100 are permanently stationed in London as a reserve against terrorist threats.
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Haarken
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:16 pm |
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To be honest I dont see the space marines as fulfilling a strike force role, for a start they have access to hardware such as the vindicator and whirlwind (not to mention the dreadnought) which are clearly not designed for high speed hit and run campaigns. That aside there are plenty of mentions of various space marine chapters taking part in seige warfare. The fluff, the artwork and the models are all mixed up.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 4:17 pm |
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Yes Haarken, in that thread I mentioned, we discussed in detail about modern organizations and operations. ?I believed you asked a question about RCTs, and Tas and I answered. ?The G/W fluff pics are ridiculous. ?Modern war is all about "Fire and Maneuver" and dispersion. ?Technology has dictated tactics and techniques. 
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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netepic
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:04 pm |
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The Death Guard were famous for advancing in line, decimating there opponents with repeated volleys of bolter fire. The bolter was there weapon of choice in all most combat situations.
I would think that a line of approaching troops would be the perfect target for a heavy bolter team.
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 8:20 pm |
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I have working knowledge of all military history, but my speciality is the 20th (and now the 21st !) century. ?With my father being an Infantry SGT in WWII and me being a participant as an Infantry Officer from '79-'90. ?The SMs are much more lightly organized then the IG. The IG's strengths are in their numerous AFVs in all forms as well as their huge amount of FA plus large amounts of Grunts. ?The SMs have limited armor and FA compared to the IG. ?The SMs have vertical envelopement capabilities with Drop Pods, T/hawks and Dropships/Landing Craft. Not to mention Terminator teleportation ! ?The IG just got those capabilities with the introduction of the Valkyrie and Vulture. ?Speciality AFVs like the Vindicator, are like the Combat Engineer vehicles organic to the USMC, and are limited. ?And it's not only equipment but doctrine that sets the SMs apart from the IG. ?However most gamers don't play it that way. ?They line up, shoot and rush into the middle, much like you'd see in the 18th or 19th century. (!)  Using SMs as siege troops is another G/W Fluff glitch ! However, take look at history, December 1944, Western Europe. ?The 101 Airborne with a Mech Bn TF of the 10th Armored, were tasked with defending the Bastogne sector. ?Paratroops are not traditionally considered "good" in the defense, but they were used in that role because they had to. The same could be said about all the French Airborne units at Dien Bien Phu, 1954, French Indo-China. ? So welcome to the 20th century (or the 41st !) ! ? ?And everybody should watch more of the History Channel ! ?
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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primarch
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:33 am |
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Hi!
L4, did you see the special on Alexander the Great on sunday?
Very good program, it lasted 3 hours.
Primarch
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:31 am |
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Yes, I did ! It was very good ! I plan on seeing the movie when it comes out on the 24th !
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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Legion 4
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:54 am |
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My crew and I will be there !
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Legion 4 "Cry Havoc, and let slip the Dogs of War !" ... "People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because rough men stand ready to do violence on their behalf."
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netepic
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:52 am |
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Of course the fact that Alexander the Great was gay does kinda ruin the whole love story part of the movie  .
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CyberShadow
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Post subject: The Numbers Just Don't Add Up... Posted: Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:57 pm |
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Depends which movie you are talking about, they are actually making two! One with Colin Farrell which looks really cool and is the one that you may have seen the trailer for. Then there is the other one, from Baz Lehrman (sp?) with... Leo DeCaprio as the lead. I never thought that I would see Colin Farrell and Leo play the same part in two movies!
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