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Fanatic is evolving
MaksimSmelchak
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 1:33 pm 
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I still haven't read the article.

Shalom,
Maksim-Smelchak.

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primarch
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 3:42 pm 
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Hi!

Mr Haines's rant reminds me a similar pathetic rant by Robin Dews after it became evident epic 40k had flopped.

It seems to be a tradition now...

..kill epic and get a free rant.... :;):

Primarch

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netepic
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 4:31 pm 
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Do you get fries with that?

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:09 pm 
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The article by Pete Haines did take me somewaht by surprise. I've not met Pete in person but I have spoken to him via e-mail.

In my old gaming group we only used to play W40k- I was putting together an Iron Warriors force. I was a member of the Iron Warriors Yahoo Group on which Pete would post occasionally, as it was one of his armies. Back when the Eye of Terror campaign was taking place there was an e-mail exchange between myslef, one of the list moderators and Pete, discussing the impact of IW on EoT campaign and vice versa.

Pete came across as a typical gamer. I felt W40k improved when Pete took over the reins from Gav Thorpe (who moved across to WFB). At about the same time I lost interest in WFB...

As someone said earlier in the thread, maybe someone on one of the forums insulted Pete and it just stuck in his mind. Or maybe Pete is basing his comments on the net based on GW's own forums, which I avoid at all times.

Cheers

James

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Justiniel
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 5:20 pm 
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Quote (netepic @ 08 2004 Nov.,15:31)
Do you get fries with that?

Nope, only boiled cabbage it seems.
What a lot to happen in a week, and none of it good.

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dysartes
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:50 pm 
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Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 08 2004 Nov.,16:09)
Pete came across as a typical gamer. I felt W40k improved when Pete took over the reins from Gav Thorpe (who moved across to WFB). At about the same time I lost interest in WFB...

That's odd - when GT moved to WFB, Andy Chambers was in charge of 40k, not Pete Haines.

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primarch
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Mon Nov 08, 2004 11:44 pm 
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Hi!

Gav, I can only laugh sarcastically when I hear that name...

..thank the gods he has nothing to do with epic....

Primarch

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wargame_insomniac
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:08 pm 
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Quote (dysartes @ 08 2004 Nov.,21:50)
Quote (wargame_insomniac @ 08 2004 Nov.,16:09)
Pete came across as a typical gamer. I felt W40k improved when Pete took over the reins from Gav Thorpe (who moved across to WFB). At about the same time I lost interest in WFB...

That's odd - when GT moved to WFB, Andy Chambers was in charge of 40k, not Pete Haines.

Yes- you may well be right- I just remember Pete seemed to have more of an input into various codicii afterwards.

Cheers

James

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 10:41 pm 
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Pixelgeek has posted the quote on the official forums

reposted here for simplicity sake


Everyone who uses e-mail has probably been sent a link to a website featuring a cartoon. The cartoon presents a simple equation:

Normal Person + Audience + Anonymity = ???
I will leave you to fill in the question marks with your own solution but I suspect it will be pretty easy to imagine what was actually there.

Beyond simple amusement the cartoon did make me think about the value of on-line discussion. The fact that the Fanatic Studio make extensive use of their website to get feedback on trial lists makes it vaguely applicable to the Last Word column so lets see how many people I can alienate.

Quantity heavy, Quality light
When I first encountered the Internet I assumed it would be a great research tool. I quickly realised this was a bad assumption. Put in any search and you will get a plethora of sites listed with no way of telling which ones are worth reading. I find lots of sites where people talk about their favourite army and post battle reports, pictures of their armies, pictures of themselves, their pets and their personal journals. Sometimes these are a bit spicy but generally you learn no more than if you were to go along to a games club, start a conversation and pretend to be interested in whatever the person you are talking to has to say. Are these sites a substitute for human contact, a desperate quest for self-publicity, an attempt to fabricate a website designer entry on the CV or what? I don't know but it seems to me the internet serves only to restrict the flow of information by obscuring it in a cloud of waffle.

Just who are you?
Part of the sieving process has to involve knowing who you are dealing with. This is particularly important for younger hobbyists entering chatrooms but, beyond the sinister predators of the cyberpathways, there are lesser fiends intent on inflicting tedium. As part of their evil scheme they use nom de plumes to make themselves sound cool, interesting or informed. If any of this was true they wouldn't hesitate to use their real names! Crass generalisation aside, you have no way of knowing who is remotely qualified to discuss the topic at hand, until of course, it is too late and you are in a flame war with an adolescent, high on acne lotion, and ecstatic that someone is taking him remotely seriously.

Manners maketh the man
There is a certain satisfaction for the immature mind in being impolite. I've been there myself but it wore off after puberty except with regard to politicians. I can only assume the web is populated by immature minds. As a GW designer I have had my share of slanderous accusations, some of the conspiracies are so machiavellian I almost wish they were true. Sadly I go home to a semi and not a secret base built under a volcano. It's bad enough when z-list celebs say dumb things to get noticed, no way am I going to encourage anyone else to get in on the act.

What is my motivation?
I discovered that a discussion site had been set up on dealing with a Warhammer 40,000 list that is years away from release so what is the purpose of this site? I can understand a bit of idle speculation about what a new Codex may contain, it might pass a few minutes during a pause in a game. I certainly cannot imagine wanting to keep it up for months as I am too busy painting and gaming. I am told there is a certain kudos that goes to owning or administering sites and that the way to get the best known one is to create it first. To be fair though, of all my targets these are the least likely to get the Room 101 treatment, they are a very useful way for new players to get the wisdom of experienced players and for jaded office staff to spend time chatting about games while still looking like they are working.

On a point of order your honour
When does feedback become advocacy? Well, pretty damned quickly as far as I can see. I have no problem with a competitive debate. What I encounter on the net tends to be people making demands for their own army or quibbling about anything that makes a prospective opponent tougher. The most common technique I have encountered involves drowning out any comments that don't fit the advocate's view by simply raising the same points over and over until the sheer brain-numbing irrelevance of the debate beats everyone else into apathy. It can get funny when two of them butt heads though because you can just leave them to it and know it will go on so long that neither is likely to pollute the gene pool.

In conclusion I can see some uses for the net. As a link between hobby enthusiasts it probably has a value, if only as a gossip shop, as a means of communicating between developers and enthusiasts it leaves a lot to be desired. Inevitably the feedback that is most apparent is the most vocal, the silent majority are as ever silent. When you do get the feedback it is very difficult to evaluate as you know nothing about its source. The net is with us and it's not going to go away - I think it would be a mistake to depend too heavily on it.

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Jimbo
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:08 pm 
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Just in case anyone missed it on the official forums, this quote from Jervis

So, chins up guys. Well I can't pretend this situation is all good, the future remains very bright for Epic, especially considering where we were just a couple of years ago.


is quite illuminating.

He admits it is not all good news.

True compared to pre EA (post E40K) things could be considered bleak (from a GW point of view, personally I enjoyed Epic games during this time) back then and the future is orange.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:10 pm 
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I'll just repost my comment from the SG site. (I apologize in advance if you should find the language a bit harsh -moderate if you want- but I just wanted to let out a bit of steam...

Like others have said there's a grain of truth in what Pete Haines says: There IS a lot of immature squabbeling going on on most forums and it can certainly be difficult for a game developer to sort out what is usefull feedback and what is just people yelling or whining.

That said, I think Pete Haines has completely missed the point with the way he views the Internet. Sure the internet isn't very effective -If it was if would be little more than a public library. My point is that the internet is not a tool: It is a living pulsating entity as incomprihensible and nonsensical as the human being. More improtantly it is a new way of life and interpersonel communication which is there to stay and if Mr. Haines fails to appreciate this well, that's his loss. If he want to close his eyes to the sometimes brilliant things which appears from the cesspool that is the net thgen fine. I don't have a probelm with that. However the arrogant attitude of dismissing net users -and more improtantly THE PEOPLE WHO PLAYS HIS GAMES -HIS CUSTOMERS as nothing more than snotty ignorant fools is simply moronic.

It sort of equates if McDonalds advertizements went: "Hey you fat b********! Why don't you get your Lard****s down to our resturants and stuff your face till you die of heart faliure!"
...You get my point? It's poor business practice and an arrogant attitude towards your very own customers.

One thing would be to post this in WD where the message would reach the audience which accounts for 99% of the people he rants about.
An entirely different thing is to post it in Fanatic whose forums are pretty exemplaric both in terms of general politeness, genuine care for the game system as a whole and also productiveness. I've certainly seen a lot of good suggestions put out here which -even though they won't become official- have enriched the hobby for me.

Fanatic gamers are generally a more mature audience so to be called a snotty ignorant is pretty darn offensive to me: I've done my best to contribute positively to the game and the community. I've created a website and though I'm certainly no web-expert I can guarantee it isn't with the purpose of improving my CV but because I genuinely love the hobby and want to share my work with other people and hopefully give them some inspiration and ideas.
To post a message like that in Fanatic when this department is so dependant on the web is nothing short of offensive to everything the Fanatic team has achieved, the Fanatic team themselves and not least us: the users!

Cheers!


...And if I might add that the Epic Community (Netepic, EpiComms etc.) is the antithesis of everything Pete Haynes rants about: It is a very polite place, intelligent conversation and lots of creative ideas which enriches the hobby in a way far beyond anything GW could possibly have achieved on their own.

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Warmaster Nice
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2004 11:29 pm 
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...I just couldn't help thinking: Considering the fact that the people he is ranting about primarily are the GW core games fan base one might speculate that hidn't have the guts to post it in WD as such an insult on the fan base could actually affect the sales of GW...

...Sorry; I'll sht up now...
:;):

Cheers! :)

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primarch
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:18 am 
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Hi!

All valid points. Its easy to "piss" on the "grognards" of the hobby. We are the most vocal in our views and the least influenced by GW propaganda. We are not wanted becuase we question and demand answers. The GW counter thrust has been to "minimize" critisism by branding it as "whining". Unbased complaints are certainly exsistant. In some cases overly so. But GW misses the underlying truth....

WHY DO PEOPLE COMPLAIN!

Its easy to dismiss, so as not to address the true underlying cause of such grumbling.

GW's business model is simple. Sell as much as you can however you can and shunt aside all who oppose or question this. GW does not want to be "the hobby". They want to be a mass market toy, like GI Joe or Barbie. There is profit in this for their investors.

I have known this for long, internalized it and act accordingly. I dont BELIEVE in GW any more. I only beleive in how fun the epic system is and as Jimbo pointed out, I too liked the era where epic was "dead" (in GW terms of course), since it lead to maximum creativeness amongst epic fans. We dont need to be spoon fed by GW for there to be an epic hobby.

I beleive we are all smart enough to maintain our OWN hobby.

This time around though, we are more ready to fill the void than the first time it happened. With good content, creative ideas and better forums.

Add to this the occasional FW epic release and I dont think we NEED GW, fanatic or any of them.

My hobby..... MY CHOICE!

Primarch

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dafrca
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 3:45 am 
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I think the whole article could be summed up in the one phrase;

... so lets see how many people I can alienate.


The sad fact is, he did not set out to educate or enlighten us. He had one motive in mind and was very clear about it. He wanted to piss off people. He wanted to hurt the customer. He wanted to alienate us, his source of income.

dafrca

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Mojarn Piett
 Post subject: Fanatic is evolving
PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2004 7:50 am 
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Remember the Thousand Son marine in the Golden Throne comic a while ago? That's what I'd like to say to Mr. Haines right now.  }:)

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