Hello,

how do you preceive flyers in your group?

In ours they are looked as a overpowered part the of the game, sometimes we even "Gently agree" not to play them. It's a pity because they are cool models, but I tend as well to see them a little game unbalancing.
As a Squat player I am always told the the Overlord is the most overpowered of alll, but.. as a Squat player.. I do not see the other "non floater" flyers to be much different.

What do you think??

Have a nice day!

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Deda
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"The truth is usually just an excuse
for a lack of imagination"
-Elim Garak
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Net Epic Gold Games 2021-22 W-D-L
Squat 8-0-3
Imperial Guard 1-0-2

Flyers (and Floaters) are a known issue, with several proposed fixes that never quite gain enough support to be implemented. Search through the forums here and you will find several discussions on this topic.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Ehehe thank you! I am actually plannin to write a simple ruleset for them on my own, which I will submit to our group for approval.
I will look in the forum looking for the ongoing discussion, thank you!

_________________
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Deda
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"The truth is usually just an excuse
for a lack of imagination"
-Elim Garak
---
Net Epic Gold Games 2021-22 W-D-L
Squat 8-0-3
Imperial Guard 1-0-2

There's always discussions around "overvalued" and "overpowered" units. Some unit are looked at as "insane" etc. But in the end I get the feeling it's more about how to find the right "countermeasures" to deal with a particular unit.
Some units are probably "overpowered" vs some enemies/units and the other way around.

First of all though, I agree that if in NetEpic Gold using the original floater/flier rules, than it actually is a bit overpowered We use fliers/floaters but also the optional rules in Gold, and we have also added the Palladium rule that the add 25cm extra for being on high altitude, goes both ways.
That balances it quite well.

I always play squats and my opponent Orks and in a game we played the other day, we actually had a discussion around the Overlords, and "overpowered" or not, thinking of its price, its features and compared it to other Ork units (in this case). So interesting I stumbled upon this old thread:)

We played a 4K game and I had two Overlords and he had picked three Stompa mobs. My opponent thought the Overlord was a bit overpowered, and I didn't think it's that much better than a Stompa mob (if better at all) which has the same price (250 in Gold).
I know you can't really black and white compare two units like that, but it can give an indication at least. The reason we compared those is they cost the same, they are both sort of super heavies where they get an "extra" save.
I would save the Overlord is superior vs units being infantry to vehicles and the stompas from more vehicles/heavy vehicles and up.

Anyway, what we discussed was that the Overlord has one 6d6 5+ (-2TSM) weapon and a 4d6 5+ (0) weapon. The Stompa mob a 3d6 3+ (-4) weapon. That could sound like the OVerlord is way better with it's ten dices, but not really. Statistically they will both make two hits on the more powerful weapon, but the Stompa mob weapon is much more powerful with it's -4 TSM, so a bit advantage to the stompas.
Then the Overlord has those extra 4d6 that statistically gives it 1-2 more hits with a 0 modifier. I would say comparing them they are now quite well balanced. The Overlord would be better versus weaker save units and the Stompas better versus heavier vehicles.
Now the OVerlord has that melta bomb, but during my 25 years of playing epic, I have NEVER had the chance to use it. Not sure I play it correctly, but it just never comes into play
Then we have the CAF where the STompas dominate with it's three Stompas with +8 caf and the Overlord is alone and only has +5. Advantage Stompas.
Then we have the movement, 5cm more for the Overlord, so advantage Overlord.
And then there's this extra save, when the Stompas are hit, they completely survive on a 1, get damaged and has a -1 to hit modifier on 2-3 and is destroyed on 4-6. The Overlord survives on 1-3 and gets an extra armour save throw on 4-5, so advantage Overlord. BUT, there's just one OVerlord so even though it's gets a better second save, if it fails, its gone, finito.

Then we have some Floater advantages for the OVerlord, it gets this extra -1 shoot the thin part TSM modifier. It can't get pinned and maybe something else I forgot.

I would though say, they are pretty equal compared, if we talk balance. And no, you can't compare units black and white just like this, but my point is, they are well balanced, you just need to use the Overlord where it does its business bust and the same with the Stompas.
Lets just say I had no idea how effective a couple of Shokk attakk guns could be versus my floater. My opponent picked a couple of those and made life really difficult with my floaters (they have LoS, so if a floater is high up, it ALWAYS sees it). Is that unbalanced? No, it's just that the Shokk Attak guns work really well against fliers and I have to come up with a countermeasure

Since this post isn't long enough, let me add that we setup a fun little fight, the OVerlord vs a Stompa Mob (remember now, alternate rules, so the Stompas could fire on my Overlord). My friend was sure the Overlord would dominate and I was quite sure of the opposite. We played ten fights of just first fire against each other and switched who started every turn.
Let's just say a Stompa mob completely slaughters the Overlord in a face to face combat between those two.
It was 9-1 to the Stompa Mob.
Unbalanced? No, its probably just not a good idea for an Overlord to go up against Stompas.

Again, sorry for long post, but I think this is quite interesting

Interesting evaluation, and good testing methods there with fighting multiple battles. Your analysis above seems to have forgotten about the Melta-Bombs. If an Overlord is going to be within 25cm horizontally of the Stompaz, then it may as well be directly overhead and dropping bombs too. That would likely have given the Overlord a couple more wins. Otherwise, just staying further away than 25cm would mean the Overlord wins every time, which should be easy as it is faster than a Stompa and has longer range weapons.

As to them having identical cost values meaning they are balanced, unfortunately that just isn't true. Basically, the core Gold costs are based on the 2nd edition costs, which GW admitted several times were only balanced within the same army list. They never compared units between lists to see if the costs were balanced. This is fine when the units in question are only ever going to fight units from the same list (as in 1st edition before rules for Eldar and Orks were released), but not when their opponents are from different lists. This is why, to create balance - or some semblance of it - a system is required that looks at the stats of the units in question and values them accordingly. This is why I created the Points Formula.

In that system, an Overlord has a value of 284. A Stompa is 109, with a detachment being 255. Still fairly close, but not identical.

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Net Epic Coordinator

I removed the melta-bombs from the, very basic, playtest since I have never been able to actually use it in my "Squat career" So it was a conscious choice But I agree, adding them of course would have meant some more wins.
The whole point of our little playtest was just to see what happens if both units are placed so they can fire all they got (except melta-bombs), what would happen.

I mean everything you say is what I'm trying to say, it's often not a question of overvalue, it's how you play the units and versus what you play them. Some things might be slightly overvalued, but my view is that, saying some things are "insanely" overvalued, is an exaggeration.

I think you misunderstood my "comparison" and the price, or it's my english that's not good enough. But I didn't mean they are well balanced because they have the same price, that was just a starting point of our comparison, two units with the same price and in a sense, considered as units in the same "department" (not sure about the english translation here).
I think they are pretty well balanced in general, a player just needs to take advantage of their respective strengths and avoid putting the different units in disadvantageous situations.

The discussion is though very interesting

In my group, we generally have agreed that we'll always disclose whether or not we want to bring flyers so that our opponent can either also bring flyers or sufficient AA. We do the same with Titans. Simply because both can be rather frustrating to face if you're not at least a little bit prepared.

Seems a sensitive chioce to me! We actually do something like this!

_________________
---
Deda
---
"The truth is usually just an excuse
for a lack of imagination"
-Elim Garak
---
Net Epic Gold Games 2021-22 W-D-L
Squat 8-0-3
Imperial Guard 1-0-2