Good call on the nomenclature. Only other thing I'd suggest there is to also use distinct terminology for warhost/troupe (since you don't really want troupes that are not troupes). Just core/support would be fine, or I guess lead/support or something.

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Having now played them (see battle reports) I think the Harlequin Grand Masque definitely fit into the 'If you're an experienced player and you fancy playing a list that'll be a challenge' category. I think they are fun to play with/against though.
2 big changes that Ginger has brought in that I don't think are in the PDF - Mimics don't have MW on first strike, and Laughing God marker doesn't make units inspiring. Worth noting as this tones down the list quite a bit.

Having seen Gingers conversions I can confirm they work very nicely, making this army very doable in that it only requires about 30 odd Harlequin/Banshee/Jetbike models and some spare Aspects/Farseers.

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Ok Guys, Following comments here and offline, I have updated the list at the beginning of the thread.

Apart from some units corrections, the main change is to make the Shadowseer a character allowing the Mimes to gain it. Hopefully these changes will focus the list a bit further making it easier to test.

As always, please let me know your views and any issues you find.

battle report up...

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31688

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Greg

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Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

battle report up..

viewtopic.php?f=84&t=31723

_________________
Regards
Greg

*************************************************

Not against change, so long as it done fairly and no one is left behind....

I'm human and not a !@#$%^# Robot..

Battle report up

Harlequins + Biel tan allies vs Thousand Sons

Great to see this list getting some attention. Harlies are surely one of the most interesting propositions when it comes to new armies to develop!

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Great to see you back after your enforced absence

And yes, the Harlies are very different and challenging. Do you have any further insights or suggestions?

Looks like it's shaping up nicely. I had a couple of thoughts:

Is the reason for saying a Grand Masque may not take Titans, and aircraft in should have an equivalent number of infantry / tanks for balance or fluff? It seems like a stipulation that could be removed to streamline the allies rules?

Should the Master Mime have first strike?


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I believe both Troupe Leader and Master Mime should have FS on their Extra Attack. An oversight that will be corrected in the next update.

The reason for the restrictions on the allied units is that some constraint should apply given the 1/3 restriction on normal lists, otherwise the a Grand Masque would have unrestricted access to titans and air-power which would negate some of their weaknesses and make that version of the list over-powered (at least IMHO). We can always lift the constraint later if appropriate.

I think because the VoT is such a radical rule it could be described better - maybe with examples. Also the mixed up ranges on the players irks me irrationally. Also, although we know what you mean by "Inspired" in the Cegorach rules is it ok to use such shorthand?

"Inspired" is a confusing term that needs to be removed from Cegorach. Basically the marker alters the Initiative of nearby formations and nothing else.

Veil of Tears needs some attention to explain what happens though space is at a premium (I want to keep all the initial 'bumph' on a single page if possible. Essentially the Shadwseer excludes some enemy units from all parts of the assault process, though he can use his FF capability if not in CC himself. As a consequence he needs to be placed very carefully to ensure that he does not enthrall enemy units in contact with other Harlies as they would be excluded leaving those Harlies reliant on their FF, which is poor to non-existent. Here are some notional examples where "E" is an enemy unit, "H" is a Harlequin, "S" is the Shadowseer and "X" is an enthralled enemy unit

1) good positioning leaves the Harlies evenly matched before the start of the assault by enthralling (and thus excluding) two enemy units
E.E. E. E. E. X. X
H. H. H. H. . S

2) poor positioning (and high dice) enthralls three enemy leaving two Harlies using FF and thus preventing them from using their EA
E.E. X. X. X. E.E
.H. H. S. H. H.

3) infiltrating an enemy IG infantry formation to enthrall (and thus exclude) the 'inspiring' Commissar
E. E. E. C. E. E. E
E. E. E. S. E. E. E
. H. H. . . . .H. H

In this last example, some of the other enemy units fighting the Harlies might also be enthralled depending on the dice thrown. However where a Harlequin leader is present (inspiring) and assuming only the Commissar is enthralled, the Harlies might reasonably expect to kill 6x enemy, possibly losing 1x unit, leaving the Harlies +5 in the assault resolution (+5 kills, +1 inspiring, -1 outnumbered 6-4; the Commissar is excluded while the Shadowseer is included)

Question:
Should the Shadowseer be granted 'scout' to facilitate this infiltration, and make it easier to establish those enemy units that are being enthralled?

Question:
Should the Shadowseer be granted 'scout' to facilitate this infiltration, and make it easier to establish those enemy units that are being enthralled?

An intresting possibility... Given his movement for assaulting is still only 30cm unless riding a venom this seems a good way to remove a little of the micro-positioning around an assault, whilst still taking some skill to pull off.

Though remind me, being a scout could he move into 10cm of other units, effectively forcing them to assault the Harlequins?? (I forget the Epic UK ruling on this.)

So we were asked to look at some 'competitive' builds for the Biel Tan/Dark Eldar + Allies. How about these?


Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Biel-Tan Craftworld (Epic-UK v121013)
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WRAITHGATE [50]

AVATAR [0]

GUARDIAN WARHOST [150]
Farseer, 7 Guardians

GUARDIAN WARHOST [150]
Farseer, 7 Guardians

ASPECT WARRIOR WARHOST [375]
Autarch, 8 Warp Spider

VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]

VAMPIRE RAIDER [200]

VOID SPINNER [275]

ENGINES OF VAUL TROUPE [250]
Storm Serpent

RANGER TROUPE [125]
5 Ranger

RANGER TROUPE [100]
4 Ranger

FALCON TROUPE [250]
5 Falcon

FALCON TROUPE [250]
5 Falcon

Mimes [300]
5 Mimes

Harlequin Troupe [325]
5 Harlequins


A strong Biel Tan list, effectively just swapping Aspects for Harlequins. With Air units, good FF units and a storm serpent to aid with webway trickery this is still quite a competitive list for players who'd like to include harlequins.

Dark Eldar

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Dark Eldar (EpicUK V.10042013)
==================================================

KABAL COTERIE [250]
4 Incubi, 1 Archon character

WEBWAY PORTAL [50]

PORTABLE WEBWAY PORTAL [50]

SLAVEBRINGER [200]

VOIDRAVEN BOMBERS [225]
2 Voidravens

VOIDRAVEN BOMBERS [225]
2 Voidravens

HEAVY BARGE [250]
1 Vessel of Pain

HEAVY BARGE [250]
1 Vessel of Pain

WYCH CULT [200]
6 Wyches

KABAL SYNDICATE [200]
6 Warriors

KABAL SYNDICATE [200]
6 Warriors

KABAL SYNDICATE [200]
6 Warriors

Mimes [375]
5 Mimes, Shadowseer

Harlequin Troupe [325]
5 Harlequins

(Assumes Shadowseer as 75pt upgrade)

A strong Dark Eldar list with webgates boosted by the Webway mastery of the Harlequins, and the ability to triple retain so long as the Shadowseer is alive. It does have 2 BTS, though.

To me these look a bit stronger than pure Harlies, but not necessarily better than anything you could come up with Biel Tan/Dark Eldar excluding allies. They also change the existing lists to make them a bit more CC and assault driven. Thoughts?

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Tricky thing with the 2nd list is that you have 2 bts (mimes and Arcon's unit)

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Hi Mark, and thanks for the comments and straw man lists.
The Shadowseer is now a character and only 50 points, so I think you would only have one BTS in the second list. However none of the Harlequin formations in either list can control objectives, since no leaders have been included, which is an interesting choice.

The thinking behind adding scout to the Shadowseer was to increase it's coherency range so the unit could move more distinctly into the enemy formation (hopefully reducing debates over which units are enthralled).

Your question on ZoC is answered in the FAQ, effectively the enemy must either engage the ZoCing formation or move out of it's ZoC.