Kyrt wrote:
I think the fallen rule isn't perhaps intended to replace the blitz objective but the victory condition. So the physical objective still exists. Otherwise it's comically good for the DA player because it also denies the opponent the DtF victory condition.
However, honestly I think this rule still has big problems. Against some armies it is just going to be trivially easy to achieve. And where it is not easy, you simply don't use it. I mean, it can only ever be to the advantage of the DA player but that advantage is hugely variable. How can you possibly balance that? When it comes to it there are quite a lot of edge cases and covering them all will make for a very inelegant rule. You could make it that the opponent chooses but then you have the opposite problem - you're only going to do it if it is clearly to your advantage, and you could do some weird things like nominate guardians in the webway, never bring them on, and meanwhile not have to worry about your blitz.
I could understand if this was a defining rule of the DA that had to be made to work at all costs, but does it really bring that much to the list? To me it just seems not fun.
Thanks for looking the list over, you are right in reading that it changes the victory condition, not the actual objesctive and I have changed the wording to try and reflect that. Giving the list a unique victory condition is something I always wanted to do for the list and is something I'd love to see other list try out int the future. It has seen some rudimently playtesting here in Australia - but not recorded so we can't officially point to that. Needless to say this has not been spun out of thin air. But testing will show the way
Removing all planetfall options and Landers may see it as a harder victory condition to pull off now.
Kyrt wrote:
The nephilim are much improved over their old ridiculous stats, with initiative 1+ perhaps still slightly undercosted but the list can't afford to make its only real AA any more expensive. Maybe bringing the range of the heavy bolter down to 15 would make it less extreme and add a bit more nuance to a unit that's currently just really good at everything.
Good pickup, after looking at the IF Storm Talon Gunships AA ability I've followed your advice and brought down the Heavy Bolter to 15cm, also the price has bumped up to 250 for testing
Largo_W wrote:
Perhaps this is considered offensive, but do you guys play another version of this game downunder? And I wont tackle "Hunt for The Fallen" as it is clearly meant as a joke and only applies to friendly games. At least I hope so.
Your entire tone and dissmissiveness was considerd offence, so I'll be skipping your post, onto helpful people
Kyrt wrote:
By way of example look at the land speeders. You've added two new ones, both awesome, and not removed any. You could just as easily have dropped any 2 of the original three, as well as losing MW FF from the vengeance (why does it even have it?). That would be restraint. Then the darkshroud, did it really have to be cover AND inv save for the whole formation AND an additional unit?
For now I'd like to keep all the Landspeeder option in, see testing, and in the future remove any that seem supurfluess.
The Vengeance has now lost the MW FF, you're right - no reason to have it
Darkshroud has been reworked to: Changes to support playstyle - Grants cover to all friendly units within it's zone of control (Being scout - 10cm)
jimmyzimms wrote:
Ok starting with Zimmy's Procrustean commandments (just to get them out of the way):
-Land Raider Achilles. They've got well tested and established stats in NetEA. Use those stats. No "DA Achilles" name games either.
It's a trifle to modify regardless (The Thunderfire gets a boost while MM will always be 15cm).
All good, oversight on my behalf, easily brought in line with
jimmyzimms wrote:
Marine SHT's will always be 15cm move as long as I'm here. Through the power of handwavium it's due to extreme age of the units involved and the extra special careful use for valued relics
jimmyzimms wrote:
SHT should be 6+ in CC. I don't care "but Marines" doesn't hold water. They should TOTALLY be vulnerable to titanhammer type formations. that's EXACTLY how you deal with them in 30k/40k and by precedence, EA as well.
Complete rework of the Relic section has happened, removal or Falchion and the Glaive as follows: rice upped to 325, DC upped to 4DC, Quad Lascannon split into left and right arcs. Volkite Carronade changed to 45cm 3BP IC, Disrupt
Currently in line with IF approved Falchion stats with pricing and DC strength and other weapons - though missing demolisher and different main armament
jimmyzimms wrote:
-What makes the DA as a list work thematically is largely the special victory condition, otherwise the existing lists cover them and it serves no purpose as a tournament list. The goal is to provide a unique of flavorful twist on something familiar. Without needing to be said, though I'll do it anyways, it must be fun to play with and against. I will confirm that the intention is to change the Blitz Victory Condition for DA, not the DA blitz objective itself for the opponent (wording). Without a doubt this MUST be at the opponent's discretion, not the DA and I strongly encourage that it SHOULD be declared and decided BEFORE seeing the opponent list (though I'd suggest the faction be known - "I'm playing orks." "Oh great, want to try HFTF for a twist?" "Sure!").
-We should consider also that with for theme that the DA operating in this fashion are not about holding territory but performing extraordinary rendition that they cannot get the "They Shall Not Pass" if they use the HFTF. This is also a HUGE factor in balancing and being fun to face against a very very very powerful list with lots of toys (which I am not opposed to it being-those goodies being a large part of the joy of playing it).
I'm happy to get a lot of testing around this unique VC
jimmyzimms wrote:
-Been mentioned several times that there's an over-preponderance of units. You've recognized that. Others have pointed it out. I'll also point out to the community that Mard's stated that we'll figure out what is superfluous organically through testing. There's no need to belabor the point and I can accept that as a starting point.
Probable Bloat units are
--LS Vengance should just replace Tornado since the former is an upgun'd version of the latter
--Predator Executioner probably could be replacement, not upgrade for the Annihilator
--One of two type of SHT are probably going to be clear winners (though I'll admid my preference for the Glaive over the falchion for obvious reasons).
let's keep an eye out
I'll be keeping an eye on playtests for trimming bloat.
On saying that, speaking of the tornado, I don't think I'v ever seen them in any list in Australia in any tournament. Most people like the standard LS. But i remember the uproar Angel of Caliban had when he took out Vindicators and destroying people collections. For this reason I'd rather leave them in at the moment. Also I'm not inclinned to replace the Pred Anihilator at this point.
Also as an interesting little factoid. Version 1.0 of this list had 39 individual units, version 1.1 currently has 37. This bring it behind the total number of units of the Space Wolves and in line with the IF (Both thought over here to be the only two really competitive SM lists)
jimmyzimms wrote:
Thanks for catching the Executioner weapon as being a Plasma Destroyer, not plasma cannon. It's going to need SF, period though dude or some toning down. Testing will absolutely show that though. I'm just noting that it's silly good right now as stands and is axiomatic as such.
Yep, testing will point up in the right direction, but you've got to start somewhere
jimmyzimms wrote:
The Darkshroud bonus should be distance based, not formation based for obvious fluff and balance reasons. They look fun.
Yep, after talking with the local group over the weekend we have changed the Darkshroud to: Grants cover to all friendly units within it's zone of control.
Personally I'd love to see more "support" units in the game eventually
But We'll see what happens
mordoten wrote:
- No allies because of the "unforgiven rule"
- Teleport homers on Ravenwing formations.
- The ability to add +2 units of terminators to Deathwing formations.
- Nephilim fighters (a seriously toned down version) as AC.
other then theese things it should be exactly like the codex list. A few changes is all that is needed i think. And absolutly include hunters in the list.
- No allies will always be a thing for this list
- I had the ability to pump the formation up to 6 in version 1.0, but after discussions we've dropped this back down to the standard 4. The Dark Angel list will not be the list that will break this trend currently as a unit of 6 Terminators is pretty massive with ATSKNF
- We're bringing them down a bit at a time currently
- Hunters re-added
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Typo: "Dark Angels Core" on p1, should go on p2.
Fixed
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Ravenwing special rule: I like it, but the addition of Scout to all RW units should bump the price of the Ravenwing detachment to 225 or 250; It is such a useful ability.
For now I've removed the scout options for the bikes
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
the Fallen: I like this, obviously. I think it should be amended by requiring the Fallen formation to start on the table (otherwise it can frequently be gamed unachievable by leaving the formation in reserve). And yes, replace "Blitz objective" with "the Blitzkrieg goal".
The old rule was like that, but could disrupt and affect your opponents army if he brought say, Necrons or any list that was all using planetfall/webways etc
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Deathwing detachment: "two Line Company detachment" > "two Line Company detachments".
Fixed
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Tactical: Why do DA tacticals have more integrated combined arms formations than regular SM? I'd lose the Deathwing Support and the Ironwing support from them.
Devastator: Again, why Ironwing support?
Thanks on that pickup! Oversight on my behalf from an earlier design phase, forgot they were there - now removed.
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Nephilims: Underpriced at 225. Start them at 275, maybe later dropping to 250 if that's too much. The stats seem OK - very very good, not Nightwing pilot level, but heavier gunnery. With Ini 1+, they have to be expensive.
Dark Talons: Not worse than Marauders, certainly. Start at 275, at least.
Both have taken nerfs and price bumps to 250 to start with
Dark Talon has had Stasis Bomp changed to 1BP and continual use for now for testing, loses disrupt
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Land Speeders: There are probably too many variants, yes, but I would hesitate to lose any of them. Land Speeders variety feels right for Ravenwing.
I aggree
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Darkshroud: Granting the entire formation cover is probably a bit much. How about "friendly units within 15cm" or similar? Then it can also help just-teleported-in Deathwing or other formations that don't like being stuck in the open... I'd lose the Inv Save entirely.
It's a really great ability, and undercosted at 50 points. How about 75 points to replace a regular Land Speeder with one of these? It keeps the unit size down at 5, too.
We've played with this as well
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Land Raider: While I appreciate that DA in general may have a larger collection of Land Raiders to pick from, perhaps this aspect of the Chapter can be de-emphasized in a Hunt for the Fallen themed list? I don't see the Achilles or Crusader adding anything thematic to the list
I'll be keeping an eye on these, if they aren't really used or taken, I'll be removing them
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Predator Executioners are a proper thematic addition; how about just dropping the Annihilators entirely? It will also make it easy to use existing collection Annihilators as "counts-as" executioners in this list, if there are no actual Annihilators to confuse them with.
I will think on it, but honestly I will not be looking to remove Annihilators from the list. Executioners are an upgrade to the standard Annihilator
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Typo: "Achillies" > "Achilles"
Typo: "Nephalim" > "Nephilim"
Fixed
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Whirlwinds should not have Ironwing Support.
Vindicators may actually benefit from Ironwing support (looks like the upgrade is on the wrong line).
Fixed
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
e trying to do with the "Master"s - except for the Grand Master, who is better than a SM SupCom, the rest are worse than SM equivalents. Is there any special fluff reason why DA leaders don't have Inv Save? Or that the SupCom has Fearless?
Just accidents really, re-alligned with standard codex
SpeakerToMachines wrote:
Radical idea (reiterated): Leave the leaders statline as stock SM, but restructure the upgrades as
1) Master: Add Captain or Librarian (at +50) or Supreme Commander (at +100) to formation
2) Chaplain: Add Chaplain (at +50) to formation.
This allows the DA to field more Interrogator Chaplains, in addition to the normal leaders, which seems appropriate when hunting fallen.
Interesting ideas! But I doubt they'll let us have it