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Emperor's Children v4.0

 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 1:44 pm 
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from my experience the scourge is still op or underpriced from what it can achieve on the field.
paired with raptors and daemonic pact it is an all time win vs. horde armies or ig.

personally i would tone it down to at most ff 4+. otherwise 12 d6 with ff 3+ in a support after shooting simply is no funny anymore. for only 450 i mean. also the formation is super resilent and simply only breaks after some horrendous amount of firepower. also fearless doesnt make it any better.

i'm trying to think of any other 75pts unit that comes up to it. land raider? nowhere close. yes it takes up space in the war allies section. but thats not compensating i think


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 5:38 pm 
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Graf_Spee wrote:
from my experience the scourge is still op or underpriced from what it can achieve on the field.
paired with raptors and daemonic pact it is an all time win vs. horde armies or ig.


You mean the raptors have pact I assume. Fair enough, that sort of synergy is one of my concerns.

I take it that you've played against or with the list on more than one occasion... Could I persuade you to test on a more formal basis, i.e. post some batreps?

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 7:01 pm 
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captPiett wrote:
Graf_Spee wrote:
from my experience the scourge is still op or underpriced from what it can achieve on the field.
paired with raptors and daemonic pact it is an all time win vs. horde armies or ig.


You mean the raptors have pact I assume. Fair enough, that sort of synergy is one of my concerns.


yes, 5 raptors + deamonic pact

captPiett wrote:
I take it that you've played against or with the list on more than one occasion... Could I persuade you to test on a more formal basis, i.e. post some batreps?


actually only 2 times regular 3000pts and once minigeddon everytime vs the same player with various ig lists: minervan, krieg(broken one) and steel legion. unfortunatedly he is rather not that experienced. sorry mate, if you're reading this ;)

i can't remember the excact composition of my first list too well but it incorporated also a thunderhawk with an 8 strong unit of noise marines. it was versus minervan and a solid win by objective grabbing and killing his bts.

the second game was just 14 days ago vs old krieg.

this was the list i used:

Incompertus, 3000 POINTS
Emperor's Children (4.0)
==================================================

RETINUE [350]
6 Chaos Marine units, Chaos Warlord (Supreme Commander), Replace 2 chaos marine units with 2 Havok units, Emperors Children Dreadnought

RETINUE [255]
6 Chaos Marine units, Chaos Lord, 3 Rhino

RETINUE [300]
6 Chaos Marine units, Chaos Lord, Replace 4 chaos marine units with 4 Havok units, Daemonic Pact

CHOSEN [145]
4 Chaos Space Marine Chosen, 2 Rhino

NOISE MARINE RETINUE [350]
6 Noise Marine, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer

EMPEROR'S CHILDREN TERMINATORS [385]
Chaos Lord, 5 Terminator, Daemonic Pact, Icon Bearer

RAPTOR CULT [235]
Chaos Lord, 5 Raptor, Daemonic Pact

ARMOURED COMPANY [300]
5 Emperors Children Predator, Stalker

DAEMON POOL [30]
2 Lesser Daemon

HELLBLADE SQUADRON [200]
3 Hellblade Interceptors

KNIGHT PACK [450]
6 Hell-Scourge


managed to pull off two brutal clipping assaults on his gorgon comps with knights+raptors and terminators+retinue all but anihillating them both with minimal own losses. the knights accounted for a dozen++ kills (shooting + support) in this one turn. his silo kept missing my knights. noise marines were pretty much useless offensive wise but managed to contest their objective until the end. predators got wiped out in an cavalery charge on turn two. hellblades managed to get both thunderbolts only losing 1 to ground aa. won with bts, tsnp, dtf vs. nothing.


don't know when i can pull of a next game (cause i always have to travel for it) but will try and post some stuff concentrating on possible issues.


Last edited by Graf_Spee on Tue Feb 16, 2016 8:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Mon Feb 15, 2016 11:33 pm 
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Thanks for some of the tips regarding lists.
That seems like an interesting list there.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 2:26 am 
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Emperors Children vs Squat Brotherhood (02-28-2016)

After the last fight with the Emperors children and lessons learned from that battle, I reconfigured my list to add some needed punch and bigger formations of Chaos Space marines. This list not a drop list and not a purely Noise Marine/Slaanesh list. Noise Marines are expensive so I added a few to a formation and included the scourge knights.

CSM Retinue (8), Icon Bearer, 4 Rhinos, Warlord, Stalker
CSM Retinue (8, Icon Bearer, 4 Rhinos,
CSM Retinue (6), 2 Noise Marines
CSM Retinue (8), Icon Bearer, Demonic Pact
Armoured Company, 3 Land Raiders, 2 Predators
Chosen (4), 2 Rhinos, Demonic Pact
EC Terminators (5)
Knight Pack 4 Hell Scourge
Hell Talons (2)
Chaos Thunderhawk
6 in the lesser demon pool (plus two from the demonic pact, total 8).

Squats:
Brotherhood in Leviathan
6 Berzerkers, 3 Rhinos
6 Berzerkers, 3 Rhinos
Colossus
Overlord Airship
Thudd Gun
Flak weapon with squat stands
3 Iron eagles, 1 Iron hawk
6 bikes, 1 trike


Setup:
I garrisoned the chosen in the center of the battlefield in bunker. From left to right I had CSM with noise marines, Armoured Company, CSM 8 and 4 rhinos, CSM 8 and 4 Rhinos, Scourge Knights, CSM 8 with demonic pact. I kept terminators off board for teleport. No unit was transported in the thunderhawk. 6 Demons in the pool

Opposite from my left to right
Leviathan, thud gun, flak weapon, Berzerker, Colossus, Berzerker, Airship, Iron Eagles, Bikes.

Objective: my plan was to take blitz with the terminators after I saw his setup. Also None Shall Pass since squats are pretty slow and three objectives on my half.

Turn One
I won the roll and went first. First turn I fired the chosen at the airship, landing a blast markers. Later in the turn sent in my hell talons to take out the bike unit and the thunderhawk to cause some more damage to the bike unit. This broke the bikes. His gyro copters came out and layed a blast marker on the chosen in cover. He sent in a berserker unit to take the center objective which was next to the chosen. I sent my knights doubling to get within range of the overlord airship and layed some more more last markers to break it and cause 1 wound. This kept the airship out for a turn and allowed my Talons and Thunderhawk escape without taking AA fire on the way out. The marines in Rhinos moved up as did the CSM on the left and the Armoured Company.

Turn Two:
I won the initiative and had the Chosen summon 4 demons and assaulted the berserker unit, the Steeds of Slaanesh had first strike and took out two berzerkers, I opted for firefight and killed two more, in return I lost one. I won the roll off and the squats lost two more guys and broke. He sent the other berserker unit next to the objective on the right which was near the knights. The rallied airship laid fire to the knights but fabulous save, RA and Invulnerables kept them safe taking only a blast marker. I sent my Hell Talons in to take out a berserker unit that moved up next to the far right objective after a barrage and some shooting they broke. I sent the thunderhawk after the broken bike unit and destroyed them all. The gyrocopters shot at the knights causing one wound. My CSM in rhinos moved up and fired at the broke berserker unit in the center and caused enough casualties to destroy them. The Colossus shot at the knights but made all the saves (bad colossus shooting). On the left the Leviathon moved up and shot up the land raider unit causing one LR casualty. The land raiders moved up and fired at the squat troops and leviathan causing three casualties to the squats. I then moved the far left CSM unit with noise marines up a little to fire at the squats causing two more casualties. His thud guns did nothing. I moved my flyers straight off my opponents board edge to avoid AA fire.

At this point I saw the board and realized I could get blitz next turn and hopefully TSNP and possibly objectives.

Turn Three:
I summoned the Terminators on his back line near his flak and thud guns. They then assaulted the flak unit and the thud guns offered supporting fire. Terminators won easily wiping out the flak unit and causing a blast marker on the thud guns. The Hell talon came in and laid 3 more blast markers. Not quite broken. The leviathan failed to activate and rerolled and failed again. The CSM on the left advance to the objective in front of them firing some shots at the leviathan brotherhood taking a few more down. On the right the knights assaulted the iron eagles in a firefight, poor rolling and good saves had the knights lose, however the iron eagles also broke due to casualties, which was good. I then assaulted the Overlord airship with more summoned units from the chosen the airship lost and was destroyed. I consolidated the chosen back to the safe confines of their bunker. The leviathan laid waste to my CSM unit with rhinos on the right breaking them. The Thunderhawk failed to activate meaning the thud guns contested the blitz. (otherwise the Thunderhawk had free reign to break them). With objectives hard to come by, i marched my far right marines upto the far right objective and marched the other CSM with rhinos on the left to my blitz on my far right.

After all said and done I had two objectives TSNP and controlling all three objectives on my half of the table. If my thunderhawk passed I would have broken the thud guns and gotten blitz and two objectives in my opponents half.

What I learned:

This list plays more to my style of large formations prodding along. The large formations of CSM with Rhinos is tough and I can get them to cover rather quickly and still be able to fire. I love the hell talons with their barrage, I could take another formation of them and drop the thunderhawk, not sure how to use it. Nice model though. The knights absorbed fire from leviathan, colossus and iron eagles and survived till the last turn. They definitely have their uses and I see an aggressive style of play with them. The chosen have done well in all games I played with the demonic pact they are able to summon demons and this helped in two combats. Plus for a cheap unit they are tough if in the right cover. The summoning part I am enjoying and gives greater tactical flexibility to the units using them. Terminators are terminators no explanation needed for them. They do their job and do it great. The only issue I am finding is the CSM 5/6 shooting to hit. Even though they have the range 5/6 just does not cut it for elite marines. Even havocs have the same but two attacks. I would love to see noise marines a little cheaper so they get used more say 6 at 250. Their blastmasters are short range plus only 5/6, even though they have disrupt. Plus 35 for each extra is fine but the 6/300 is too much. Until next time. I will try to get some photos loaded.

Thanks Kal

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 10:28 am 
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chivalrynsorcery wrote:
The only issue I am finding is the CSM 5/6 shooting to hit. Even though they have the range 5/6 just does not cut it for elite marines. Even havocs have the same but two attacks. I would love to see noise marines a little cheaper so they get used more say 6 at 250. Their blastmasters are short range plus only 5/6, even though they have disrupt. Plus 35 for each extra is fine but the 6/300 is too much. Until next time. I will try to get some photos loaded.

Thanks Kal


all elite marines have 5/6 shooting.... when a tank mounted battlecannon only has 4/4 I think a marine with a missile launcher is about correct

I feel like a broken record here ;) but Marines of all flavours, loyal or traitor, don't destroy stuff by shooting it... their shooting is for harrassment and prepping, if you actually kill some stuff with it, that's just gravy.... they destroy stuff in engagements, and leave the shooting to the tanks and war engines

also if you're flying a thunderhawk around empty, shooting stuff, no wonder you were underwhelmed with it.... try stuffing it with terminators or noise and air-assaulting.... alternatively, teleport the termies in on t2, then if they survive, collect them with the thawk and air-assault t3...

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2016 1:57 pm 
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Yeah those tbricks are there to load them full of something nasty, like terminators and make a critical enemy formation go away. It's not an attack chopper so treating it like one will leave you cold.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 8:33 am 
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Just noticed that the Subjugator is 1 extra Attack for its battle claws, how come this has deviated from the original/Lost and the Damned list?

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 1:22 pm 
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The unit still has two attacks with them.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2016 5:18 pm 
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Yeah it has 2x battle claws with each giving an extra attack

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 3:09 am 
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Profile on the Army list States "Hell Blades Assault Weapons, EA, TK (D3)"
I'm guessing this needs to be updated then?

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 4:23 am 
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Yep:
viewtopic.php?p=493586#p493586

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Tue Mar 22, 2016 6:35 am 
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Dave wrote:


So 3 years ago this was brought up and no update?

- Kendall


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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 1:54 pm 
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Kal (and other play-testers): please try a t-hawk with a bike fm in it. I'm very curious how that works in the context of this list... I just put together my first EC bike fm and have been testing other things (when I've gotten around to it).

I imagine bikes in t-hawks could be examined in Kyuss's Red Corsairs list as well, assuming that's an option.
Cross posting on that is welcome.

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 Post subject: Re: Emperor's Children v4.0
PostPosted: Wed Mar 23, 2016 2:31 pm 
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JumpingJehovah wrote:
So 3 years ago this was brought up and no update?


Yep. It's a typo on a list that has seen limited games outside of our group.

If you're looking for it to be updated a "Could I request an updated PDF?" might get you further than a passive aggressive/crass post about the last time it was updated.

----

I've been combing the forums, this is close to approval (5-6 more games across 3 groups). 2 more games from Apoc, Kyuss and/or PFE, and/or 1 more game from Kal would be enough.

Some additional thoughts:

Steeds of Slaanesh are pretty much your best summoning option so long as the target formation isn't in cover (even then, I'd risk a dangerous terrain test). To make the other two lesser daemons viable maybe have them cost 2 to summon and give them infiltrate to make them worth it at 2?

The Land Raiders and Predators are slightly better than the BL counter-parts, on paper. 5 point unit bumps, or a 25 point formation bump would even it out, or we could leave it because they're taking up a support slot now.

I think testing has shown that the Hell-Knight and Hell-Scourge could do with a price bump, maybe +90 a unit instead of +75?

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