OK so where I am going with this is: I think most would agree that, ideally, a list should have a play style in mind and the design process should try to achieve it. If it turns out to not be possible then a new style is warranted.

If the style in mind here is "keep moving towards the enemy and then bash them over the head" then what we're discussing is trying to make that style competitive and disincentivise sustaining etc.

I'm generalising not having the list in front of me but orky weapons tend to have poor hit values, which is a huge incentive to sustain, advance, overwatch rather than double. That's just maths. The boiler mechanic, especially if it's an army rule of some sort, provides a counter balance so the question is simply whether it is enough to make the assault style work. You could take a look back at your lists, add up the points spent on boilers and think what else you could have done with those points to win you the game using the "assault" style. What sounds like an alarm bell to me though is to hear players say they already do take boilers across the board, and yet still find yourself risking the sustain.

So what would address that? Change the stats on weapons to reduce the penalty for doubling? Sounds un-orky.

Give a boost to march as well? Are you really likely to use that instead of sustain though - if you're in range to sustain would you not just double if you wanted to get closer to assault next turn?

Tweak the boiler mechanic to give a one-off large bonus instead of small bonus to each move? That could get you into assault a lot more, or get your broken stuff out of dodge.

Or is the style of the list just different, and is about shooting instead of assault?

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For me, this list should be about the Gargants moving forward while taking lots of punishment and finally assaulting things. The list actually have 1 option for fast units and thats putting lootas in a battlefortress. But i feel this should be more about dominating the centre of the board, taunting the enemy and inviting them to throw evertything they got at you. So not a smart and fast assault army, more a tough and fearless one (like the DKoK) which rumbles slowly forward.

I actually agree that maybe a special rule which lets the gargants (and supa stompas) go +5cm per move but also roll on the DTT is very interesting! Reinforced boilers would grant a reroll for the test (just like Kyussinchains said). The movement rate is a big problem and kinda forces 1 way of deploying the objectives (on the centerline, close together). Does anyone have annything against this suggestion? Please state why you think it's a bad idea.

I also agree that Supa-Stompas could be cheaper. 275 is reasonable i think. They have always been broken in all my games.

I do not thik we should change the Initiative. I like the way it forces a certain playstyle to be succesfull. And it's one of the most characteritic things about the ork lists.

Weapons has proven hard to deal with. The only actual suggestions I've got from people has been pretty far-out and unbalanced. A few options get used, but thats not unique for this list. When playing ATML most people take lasburners, gatling bölasters and Volcano cannons or Plasma destructors. I don't really mind if a few options get used more.

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I also think it could be a great idea to include Supa-stompas in the "always counts as +10 units for Mob Rule"- special rule.

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Genuinely happy for you guys if this follows through, even if you are filthy greenskin lovers...

Yes, i feel we got some really good thoughts into the discussion theese last days.
Obviously we're not going to go for approval just yet before all this issues has been tested.

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I've got a game this thursday, happy to trial any changes

With the blessing of mordoten I'd like to test out the 'push em arder ladz!' Proposed rule alongside 275pt supa stompas

I would also really like to match the weirdboy towers to the weirdboy in the ferals list (45cm MW5+/AA5+), but that's mostly for my own OCPD

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You have my blessing! Let me upload a new version so everyone can follow our tarin of thought! Will do it right now!

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And the new list is up! No change for wyrdboy towers though...

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Just for clarity on the Push 'em harder rule, I assume that if say I was marching I could take the +5 on the first segment (and the test), regular on the segment (thus no test), and finally with again with the +5 in the last and another test. It's basically NOT all or nothing. (why you'd do that I'm not sure but I guess it's totally possible)

Another clarification might be good to note (and this is an assumption again) that if I was pushing them harder the test is made BEFORE the segment movement, not after. Also now that I think of it, I'm sure that the DTT for the movement increase does NOT remove any tests for actually moving through dangerous terrain. It could be interpreted that way due to the way the DTT rules work but in this case I think the RAI would make the boilers their own deal unrelated to actual terrain.

This looks really good, mate!

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Erm, so, gargants are already walkers so the reinforced boilers rule seems redundant. And there is of course also no reason not to push harder when moving through terrain right?

If you want it to behave any other way I think it needs to be explicit. I.e. DTTs stack, but the re rolls from walker and boilers arent "transferable". One option could be to call it something else other than DTT, or as discussed earlier in the thread use a different penalty like fires.

(JZ that would be why you'd split your moves - 20 through terrain, 15 normal, 20 into terrain)

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Hmmm... Good spot guys! Need to reword it. Yes, it should be a separate roll from dangerous terrain son need to reword it completly. And boilers should only work for rerolling this roll, not ordinary DTT.

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Yeah probably simply using the DTT wording / mechanics but not calling it a DTT.

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Yeah that is how I would have envisioned it, something along the lines of:

Special Rule - "push em 'arder ladz!"

the crews of gargants are always itching to get their giant creation stuck into the fight, stoking the boilers with extra fuel and turning every dial up to eleven, this has the desired effect of making the gargant faster, but risks damaging the machine in the process, to the orks crewing the gargants, the risk of causing a massive explosion is well worth the chance of getting stuck in to a real good scrap!

whenever a gargant takes an action involving movement, the player may opt to add an additional +5cm to each move, however each time this ability is used, the player must roll a dice after each move, on a result of 1, the gargant takes a point of damage with no saves allowed, in the same way as a failed dangerous terrain test, the player may nominate before each move whether they are using the ability

I think that should cover it?

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not sure if i like the mob 10+ on the supa stompas..
i had 2 games using them (also in a 6000pts part of a mega battle with a total 15k pts per side) and one against them and i always had the feeling those guys where the ones that gave the opponent actually a realistic chance of breaking at least one gargant formation and keeping it on that course with some pressure applied.
before this change the +1 DC custom upgrade was a very valid choice for the supa stompa (for me the only one actually). making them harder to break and also better a rallying again +1 due to DC5.

that one was fair, i think. 10+ rule is a bit op considering the reduced cost and will rally them easily when no enemy is within 30cm. the 5+ mob rule would be better suited imo and would free the custom upgrade on the supa stompa for other stuff than the +1dc. like shields or boiler.

cheers and keep up the good work. i really love this list.

the strength in numbers rule doesn't apply here as you need to have more than 5 models/DC for the bonus I'm afraid

freeing up the boiler upgrade slot may mean more gork/mork heads get taken which helps the stompas rally

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