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Gargant Big Mob list development

 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 3:04 pm 
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kyussinchains wrote:
count me in for 4.... any chance of getting some red corsairs ones in exchange from your group? ;)


Cool!

well yes, i have my deathguard army that could always be used as a red corsairs one! But that will probably be late in the spring or early summer considering how seldom I've been playing Epic lately (everyone is into Infinity right now!)

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 14, 2016 4:04 pm 
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I'm too busy to keep up much with development these days but good to see this is going for approval. I'm very happy that Gargants are now fully customisable :)

I'd suggest limiting Twin Soopa-Guns for Great Gargants only though. Normal Gargants aren't allowed them in the core ork list and they could be assumed to be too big to feasibly fit on a regular gargant as otherwise other orks would.

A Gargant with 2 x twin soopa gun and a regular soopagun is only 25 points more than a Gargant with 3 x soopaguns in the core ork list and 3 barrage templates of MW with an extra BM would be nasty.


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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Thu Feb 25, 2016 11:36 pm 
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Got a game in with the list tonight against steve54's Biel-tan

Great gargant - twin soopa, boiler, 2xlifta droppa
Gargant - ripper fist, boiler, soopagun, zzap
Gargant - zzap, 2x soopagun
Supa stompa - 3x soopagun
Supa stompa - 3x soopagun
Planes

Steve took his all conquering list which is on the euk site

Game ended 2-0 turn 3 with steve's BTS aspect formation on a single stand!

Air assaults and careful support positioning really did for the gargants, who had zero ground flak

My thoughts are still that speed is a massive issue with this list, 15cm just can't cover enough table to contest objectives and get firing angles around terrain, also the supa stompa is overcosted for what they do.... very essily broken and nigh-on impossible to rally :(

I took some pics (bad lighting as ever) and will upload them but I'm away with work tomorrow and wanted to get some thoughts down before I forget!

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 10:57 pm 
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okay had a day to organise my thoughts, and while some have been shared and discussed already, here's how I feel about the list in all honesty

I like it, it's a fun list and I think the AC has done a great job keeping the theme and focus and can't fault his work

however I find it to be very very weak, the combination of all the big stuff being move 15cm coupled with int3+ really hurts things, the slow move means you struggle to get to objectives (against a canny opponent you'll almost never get DTF with this list) and also you're limited in moving to get good firing angles on stuff

the list has lots of shooting, but unless you like blast markers, you're almost always doubling which greatly reduces your effectiveness, the AMTL list needs the firepower as you're coming from such an activation deficit you need to be able to destroy enemy formations at range to level the playing field, currently the OGBM list struggles in that role a great deal more

the other big issue is that most of the assault weapons available to the list are CC weapons which further compounds your puny 15cm movement woes.... the much discussed reinforced boiler upgrade is such a no-brainer choice in the list if you want to get anywhere...

other than those more general points, some specifics

-Supa Stompas: I think these guys could do with a points drop, at 325 points they are expensive, and for my money not nearly as useful as the warhound in the AMTL list, they lack the speed and flexibility of that unit, and when broken they seriously struggle to rally.... unlike the hounds... I'd suggest dropping them to 275 as they will almost always be upgraded, they're just not worth it currently

-Reinforced boilers: These are an auto-include for most lists which is cause for concern, Jimmy has suggested they be replaced with a 'push em 'arder ladz!' army rule which means all gargants/stompas can get the 5cm move at the risk of a backfire, I much prefer this option and see no issue with it being specific to this list

-int3+ : this is a real sore point for the list, it penalises you for trying to hunker back and shoot and wastes valuable warboss rerolls which would be better served trying to rally the broken supa stompas ;) I'd suggest it needs some modification, perhaps adding +1 to sustain fire actions (making them less of a horrible risk) or perhaps a bonus when within 30cm of your warboss (it could even be an upgrade, 'Uge Shouty speakaz' or something, warboss only, all friendly units add +1 to sustain fire, advance, overwatch, marshall and march orders when within 30cm of the boss gargant)

I really like the list, I do, I've specifically painted up extra gargants to use with it, but unfortunately I'm struggling with it at the moment and that makes me a bit sad!

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Fri Feb 26, 2016 11:02 pm 
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I'd also like to see the Supa Stompas get a zzap gun option as a 0-1 choice, though a less powerful version maybe or extra points for it.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:09 am 
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yeah soory i haven't had the chance to drop a few playtests yet. it's been hard to coordinate time with the old crew (damn Microsoft has them sleeping under their desks right now) and Apoc all the sudden is actually doing doctorate work (loser ;) ) I really do feel an army rule vs upgrade might be where it is at.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:12 am 
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could even have both....

"push em arder ladz" gives you +5cm move but you make a dangerous terrain test after each move, reinforced boiler lets you re-roll the test?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 1:09 am 
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Having playrd with the list, do you think 5cm fundamentally changes the list to deal with the problem? Also do you currently tend to pay the points for the smaller gargants? They of course would benefit from the special rule.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 2:35 am 
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Onyx wrote:
atension wrote:
Just curious about your reasons for not wanting the death kannon. ATML have the volcano cannon that has better stats and is cheaper. For the most part the ATML weapons are significantly better across the board.

There are several valid reasons to remove long range weapons from an Ork list.
Anything that encourages Ork players to play in an un-Ork playstyle is not really appropriate. A 90cm TK gun does that.
There is a reason that there are no Ork weapons with a range over 60cm (Grot missiles excluded of course) and that should not be superseded/ignored here.
Just because a similar weapon exists in another list means absolutely nothing when designing a list like this. Following that logic could mean that Holofields are included as well (they are in the Eldar titan list after all).

Orks do not lack the ability to hit hard at long range. It has often been remarked that the Ghazgkull list is one of the most balanced in the game. The Death Kannon is simply not needed in this list.

On a side note, there are a lot of long range weapons being added to developing/established lists and it is bad for a game like Epic Armageddon. This game is first and foremost about maneuver and recent changes to established lists and proposed development lists is slowly taking that away (not a good thing in my book).


mordoten wrote:
Yes, Onyx hits the nail for my i don't want deth kannons in the list. Gargants should be going forward, hunting down opponents.

Just reminding all of this from last year.
It's still a valid point.

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:09 am 
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Kyrt wrote:
Having playrd with the list, do you think 5cm fundamentally changes the list to deal with the problem? Also do you currently tend to pay the points for the smaller gargants? They of course would benefit from the special rule.


The extra move does make a significant difference, over the course of a game it's an extra 15-45cm of movement which is huge in an objective based scenario

I do pay the points for the supa stompas, usually including 1 or 2, however I find myself regretting it most of the time.... they just don't get much done, I find they rumble around shooting inaccurately before being picked off or broken, last game I played I found myself wishing that I'd dropped the second stompa for a second set of planes and some kustom upgrades...

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 9:18 am 
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Thanks so much for the input guys! I will reflect upon them and get back to you this weekend about them! :-)

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development.
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 12:59 pm 
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Onyx wrote:
Onyx wrote:
atension wrote:
Just curious about your reasons for not wanting the death kannon. ATML have the volcano cannon that has better stats and is cheaper. For the most part the ATML weapons are significantly better across the board.

There are several valid reasons to remove long range weapons from an Ork list.
Anything that encourages Ork players to play in an un-Ork playstyle is not really appropriate. A 90cm TK gun does that.
There is a reason that there are no Ork weapons with a range over 60cm (Grot missiles excluded of course) and that should not be superseded/ignored here.
Just because a similar weapon exists in another list means absolutely nothing when designing a list like this. Following that logic could mean that Holofields are included as well (they are in the Eldar titan list after all).

Orks do not lack the ability to hit hard at long range. It has often been remarked that the Ghazgkull list is one of the most balanced in the game. The Death Kannon is simply not needed in this list.

On a side note, there are a lot of long range weapons being added to developing/established lists and it is bad for a game like Epic Armageddon. This game is first and foremost about maneuver and recent changes to established lists and proposed development lists is slowly taking that away (not a good thing in my book).


mordoten wrote:
Yes, Onyx hits the nail for my i don't want deth kannons in the list. Gargants should be going forward, hunting down opponents.

Just reminding all of this from last year.
It's still a valid point.



I'm not so sure I agree with this.... equating the gargant and ghazgkull lists is a mismatch... the ghaz list has access to oddboys in 30cm move gunwagons, with a double, you can easily zip many such formations (a snip at 200 points) 60cm forwards and hit the opposing baseline, threatening artillery, flak, small war engines (especially vessels of pain that you thought were hidden eh Steve54? ;) ) the OGBM list can't do that, not even close...

also why shouldn't the OGBM list have access to the very best weapons? that's kinda how the AMTL list works, it should be the same for the gargants IMO...

the combination of a stock 15cm move and int3+ massively compensates for the extra range as you're either doubling to ensure you're able to actually move, then only hitting 50% of the time, or you're risking the single, which fails a third of the time, which often means you end up sat where you started, it's the same story with sustain fire, plenty of times you end up just shooting normally, and missing a third of the time (or worse if your target is in cover ;) )

I think that currently the list needs every boost it can get, the lack of high volume-of-fire weapons apart from the gatling blaster means you can struggle against armies with hordes of tanks or other AVs, so being able to hit them for 3 turns, potentially at long range, is pretty crucial in my experience

right now the list can't play in an 'orky' style akin to the ghaz, speed freaks or ferals as it's too slow to engage effectively, yet not shooty enough to compensate

so far I've not found the deth kannons to be worth their points, I'd much rather take the lifta droppa for the extra CC attack... the only time the deth kannons were much use was in our 10k campaign weekend game of OGBM vs AMTL which was a last man standing affair and bore no resemblance to the tournament scenario ;D

I do understand the power creep issue of course, and am willing to test the deth cannons rigorously, as well as compare them to zzaps in future batreps (ie. "I doubled but was out of range with the zzaps, however the deth kannon would have meant two TK shots against the crippled warlord titan")

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 7:13 pm 
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Sorry kyuss I meant do you find yourself paying for the boiler upgrade for the lesser gargants, or just the bigger ones where the cost to benefit is arguably higher.

Basically I'm just wondering what the overall effect of an army special rule would be in terms of how it can change what the army is able to achieve - would it magically make an assault based list work, because if not it might be more like a sticking plaster than a solution. If you are currently always paying the upgrade for every gargant then the army rule would be quite effectively just a points reduction, if not then what would it allow you to do that currently you cannot?

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sat Feb 27, 2016 10:26 pm 
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Kyrt wrote:
Sorry kyuss I meant do you find yourself paying for the boiler upgrade for the lesser gargants, or just the bigger ones where the cost to benefit is arguably higher.

Basically I'm just wondering what the overall effect of an army special rule would be in terms of how it can change what the army is able to achieve - would it magically make an assault based list work, because if not it might be more like a sticking plaster than a solution. If you are currently always paying the upgrade for every gargant then the army rule would be quite effectively just a points reduction, if not then what would it allow you to do that currently you cannot?


ah I see now, yes I pretty much always take the boiler across the board, for the supa stompas it *really* helps when the inevitable happens and the thing ends up broken, the extra 10cm withdrawal can make the difference in being outside 30cm of the enemy for rallying purposes, doubling the odds of it happening! it also helps when you're trying to get good angles on enemy units hiding behind terrain

I'm not sure it would 'magically' make an assault list work, but it definitely helps the list out in that department, as it makes both the double and engage actions more effective, currently I find myself risking a lot of sustain fire and single actions which never works out well

also coming round to Onyx's POV regarding the deth kannon, it could easily be scrapped

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 Post subject: Re: Gargant Big Mob list development - GOING FOR APPROVAL!!1
PostPosted: Sun Feb 28, 2016 7:31 am 
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In all my lists boilers are a staple for Gargants of all sizes. Only tried the deth kannon once and it was lack luster, wouldn't have an issue with it disappearing.
The list still needs a little something more to give it a reasonable chance of winning occationally. Played 5 games with the Gargant list and only won once, though I was using an illegal list with too many fighta formations (over my support restriction allowance).

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