completely off topic:
@Jimmz
Why no Crusader love in the "default" list? At least they could be a way to transport Terminators around as four Raiders is frigginly expensive.

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fair enough question (sorry to cock up your thread Uven but it is what it is )

The Codex Marines list is the yardstick used to measure and contain (hopefully) things like power creep and second system effect in other lists (Marines as well as other factions) for the tournament approved lists. Playing around with the OG list for marines too much is frowned upon in that light. While I agree that Land Raider Phobos are less than stellar that's not really a problem that Crusaders would fix (actually would probably exacerbate as they're not really cheaper) and more about the rules lacking a good representation of a heavy Tank in battle (e.g. Counts as a 1DC w/e for barging in an assault for example or some other ability such as improved ability to dismount into assault)

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No problem with a little side track, the tank is in the list so it's basically on topic

I see things similar, the crusader is not the solution to transporting terminators.
Perhaps a unit or two but not a whole formation, they are too expensive and there are better ways.

Main reason for not including them in this list would be fluff and "pureness" issues. The list should not include stuff that do not add to the Wolf feeling
Sure there will always be exceptions but I fail to see why this time, unless they become "standard equipment".

I like to throw dice and its not a big issue for me but the list looks cleaner without it...
If a lot of people have bought or converted crusaders for their favourite chapter please let me know, the intent is not to ruin someone's collection.

[looks at models, slowly raises hand]

Well being able to transport an entire detachment in two tanks does have a certain benefit in general without spiraling a formation into price stratosphere while still allowing some RA. Like I've said though, the Crusader's value statement is in adding 3 extra FF dice each in an assault which is good for a FF orientated army where the Twin Las on the Phobos (as a transport) doesn't matter much in use.

The problem with pretty much all Land Raiders (and a few other units like for instance Malcadors) is that Heavy Tanks are not really reflected in the rules well (at all). Th LR Phobos without a doubt is a 68-70 point tank; The LR Crusader is likely 62-65. Any attempt to not fit things into neat 25 point increments has resulted in villagers with firebrands outside my house however. Beshert ist beshert

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The list is approved!

Will start a new thread soon with the right pdf etc to avoid confusion.
(None of the optional stuff went through so we have some work to do in the future )

/Uven

WONDERFUL WORK!
Thanks to everyone that's tested, supplied input and ideas, and helped this list along. A big shout out to Dobbsy who led this originally and another one to Uvenlord for adopting and finishing her up! Take a victory lap, mate.

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Excellent news! Congratulations!

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Congratulations on getting approved! A job well done guys!

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Big congrats UvenLord! Great job!

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great stuff

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Uven, it's probably worth browsing through the Army Forge list and write up any discrepancies there with the approved version. I'd expect there's more than a few.

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Already on it. I have been waiting for approval before changing stuff