I've never seen them on the tabletop. How to they play? Are they popular choices?

Orkeasaurus (speed 15, DC6, 4+RA, transport 12, weak shooting, 175pt) are very popular (~3 per 3k list is standard in UK)/central to ferals as a way to transport wildobyz. They are just as slow as the boyz on foot, but provide excellent protection for the price and are nasty in assault.

Plague towers in the New LatD redux are much closer to the leviathan (20cm (formerly 15), DC6, RA4+, transport 16, 60cm 3D3+3 disrupt barrage, 300pt) are very handy. Not sure how popular they are in general, i've been play-testing the list revision with the sub-AC to test plague tower balance, so maybe encountered them more than is common (2–4 per list) … but they work.

Also worth noting that in neither or the above lists do the stock infantry get free transports. In both cases they are used as assault transports. Im not saying Leviathan should/should not be an assault transport, but plague tower is close to levi in terms of stats, cost, transport WE etc.

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Wow, that Plague Tower is pretty boss. Compared to a Leviathan it is:

Cheaper (300pts vs 375pts)
Faster (20cm vs 15cm)
Better in CC and FF (More DC)
Probably a little tougher (6DC and Invul. Vs 4DC and 4 Void Shields)
With firepower that is at least comparable, if not better (never underestimate the value of a high BP disrupt right before an engagement.

Plus the Plague Tower even has troops that are worth transporting across the board (CC focused Daemons vs ordinary Squats)

4DC+4 void shields = 8 hits
6DC = 6 hits

How can you see the plague tower as tougher?? The void shields can also be recharged, the lost DC cannot.

Theres no demon formations in the deathguard/LatD list that starts on the board. You can summon them, but that has to be done outside the WE. And for them to stsy on board a Icon bearer must be present (a upgrade that must be bought).
So a plague tower carrying demons is a very rare sight...

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The plague tower used to cost more and only be speed 15., but was felt to be underpowered, at least for its role. At present, having played a few games against them used by a much stronger player than myself, i'd say the towers are strong but not overpowered *in the LaTD list*.

i don't know about the squat list in any detail, but if leviathan is seen as a transport WE you could look at trying to lower the cost with tweaks here and there. (again, ive not played the list, so im not sure what's needed for this)

OR

Give it a very clear command role (sup com? insp? leader?)

At present in the list it looks like an assault transport WE, but costs too much to buy in that way. Depends if you want people to have the option to take 2–3 of them as a viable list, or just 1 unique choice.

*edit: also just to point out, you can summon demons inside a WE *if* the WE and summoning unit are part of the same formation, *and* there is transport room. So you can't summon inside a chaos thunderhawk, but can inside a transport upgrade plague tower.

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Not sure I would say tougher but I guess it's about personal taste. Hits against DC gets a save, shields do not. But then there are critical hits and regenerating shields etc.
I would say they are fairly equal in toughness depending on what you face.

And I'm not sure those stats is "official", isn't they just being playtested or have the change went through?

For LatD they are not yet approved, but are considered tested, it's khorne where the next round of testing is needed. Stats have been agreed across LaTD and DG by both ACs i think. So no, not official final. But tested across two different lists.

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You can summon daemons when the plague tower is part of the formation just fine, its only when its a separate formation

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As a rule of thumb, I usually put more faith in 4+ RA DC then Void shield that go down without a save. Doing the math, the Plague tower is *slightly* less tought vs TK hits than the Leviathan (7.2 hits vs , but tougher vs MW and normal hits. Which is why I said *probably* tougher. Plus it needs more blast makers to break, and usually I find Squat War Engines are broken rather than destroyed.


I'm not that familiar with the daemon rules in the LATD/Death Guard, but I am sure they are packed with big mutant/plague marines/terminators that are prime infantry to deliver in a transport.

I agree but this one has 15 cm move and costs 300 points more so spamming Leviathans won't be a problem if they do not drop drastically in points

Is the current leviathan cost balanced against the cyclops and colossus? If so, if it can only be taken as an upgrade the price would be a bit lower in comparison as it does not grant +1 activation, and replaces free transports.

Detailed discussion of plague tower should probably go to the other relevant threads so as not to de-rail this! Just pointing it out as the closest comparable unit to leviathan.

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Apcolocyntosis has a point. Currently infantry get their rhinos/termites 'free' and is one of the reasons leviathans are so rare.

We could either

1) Make Rhinos/Termites a options 10pt upgrade
or
2) Reduce the price of a Leviathan by 25-50 points when purchased as a dedicated transport


My gut feel at the moment is that the Leviathan (with current rules) should be priced at about 300 points, or 275 if taken as part of a brotherhood.

Then again, after the feedback over this thread my 'gut feel' has been changing from "Keep Leviathan rules as is" to "Sync with the Cadian Leviathan"

Making Rhinos an optional + 10 points on warriors only definitely makes the Leviathan more viable as a transport. I would however put it into both WEs and as an extra for infantry so you probably want consistent pricing. Don't forget the unit does have a MW barrage and 6 lascannons and a battlecannon so it will absolutely shred anything up to a warhourd with shooting given half a chance, that's cheap for 300 points (even as an addition) as it also provides you with a really solid BTS of 10 infantry and a DC4 fearless, RA war engine with 4 shields. By way of comparison, employing a similar BTS trick with eldar guardians and adding 3 wraithlords and 3 wraithguard costs an extra 325 pts. Half the problem is that it's not actually a bad unit, it's just not as good as the colossus. I'm quite taken with the idea of it being supreme commander but this would need a lot of playtesting as could be OP.

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What do you think about JimmyZimm's idea of giving it "Improved Comms - Any unit in the same formation as this unit may ignore the 5cm restriction when using commander" from the Land Raider Prometheus.

I would not necessarily give it supreme commander - but I do expect the supreme commander to often be hiding inside!

On it's own it's a nice little rule but for me the Squats probably have too many novelty rules already (Spotter, Stubborn, their own version of Tunnlers, 1+ rally, automata, pithead, plus support craft isn't exactly common) so I don't think solving the leviathan problem by throwing another new rule at it will necessarily help. Maybe instead just cut the points and/or turn the lascannons into autocannons to allow better synchronicity with the warriors? For me the leviathan will most likely be more of a 4k than 3k unit (ie when you need a really tough BTS).

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