Hi.
I agree the nids lists is very balanced. It lacks the ability to participate in all phases of the game, but was very effective at what it did.

But I dont see how the changes have improved the viability of other lists. All they have done is force people to take other lists.
The carnifex brute swarm is now 40 points more expensive for a minor points reduction in the other options.

The domi is still TK bait.

The effectiveness of the standard brute swarm is the same.

Im just curious as to the actual rationale. Cause I really like the nid list and been having a great time with it recently. Have you guys been discussing this on the EUK forums before now?

Seems sudden to me and makes me a little distraught.... hahah

Cheers
Jim

Overall I think these changes are very nice - mainly because I used Spore Mines and AV-swarms before and always liked them very much
I also think that the price reduction on the Zoans and the Biovores are very nice. Really eager to test the changes out.

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Fearless Carnifex Swarms sound great!
Maybe I can finally pull off the Nidzilla Minigeddon list

Otherwise, looks like time needs to tell if any of those 'other lists' will win tournaments.

EDIT: Carnifex are now upgrade only for brute swarms??? Mistake, right?!

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Yes these changes have been under discussion for some months based on tournament feedback and thoughts of nid players.
I hardly think the changes force players to use other builds, the assault swarm and harridan list merely loses an activation.

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The Nid list was well balanced and worked as intended but 1 type of build was showing to be far more effective than others.
These minor changes do not force any other type of lists to be used.
It should tone down the very effective spam list slightly whilst giving a very minor boost to the other formations and list builds.
This should allow all types of lists to be equally viable at tournaments.


The Carnifex is also Fearless, that's why it's more expensive than the other AVs choices in the brute swarm.
The Dom always should be a target for TK, why would anyone want that to change. The list allows upgrades for the Dom that help protect it from TK attacks if they are used well.
The basic brute swarm is roughly 10% more effective in this list on a points basis when compared to the older version.


4 years feedback from players and 6+ months review process and testing is hardly sudden.
The rationale behind the changes were, the list plays exactly as intended so any changes should not effect how the list plays .
The spam style list was slightly too effective other lists were very slightly under performing and some units were rarely seen.
The changes made should help the overall balance of all types of lists and allow some rarely seen units to be taken (as an example, Zoanthropes going from LV to AV allows them to be added to brute swarms without drawing all the AP fire).

NO, the Carnifex with Fearless is worth more than the other choices allowed.
If the brute swarm was as it was in the original list it would have had to cost around 250 points and no one would take the non fearless units.
This list allows players to take the other options at what they are worth, you just pay extra if you want to upgrade them to the better Carnifex unit. You can still take all carnifex brute swarms.

245 pts equals:
- 4 units
- all of which 4+ RA and fearless
- move 20cm
- +4 EA MW in b2b
- negligible shooting, negligible firefight
- in an SR 1 army, initiative 2

Tactics are: march, get shot at, hope to break (not hard with only 4 units), double to b2b distance of something, pray that you get the 4+ to rally, next turn get into b2b if enemy hasn't run away because of your SR1. Against scout screen, clipping assaults, skimmers, forget about it.
Is this the intended use for this fm? Maybe pay 445 pts for a 4 BPs using dactylis and the carnis as meatshields? There are far cheaper and better 4 BP options out there...

Compare to another 4+ RA fearless formation - Thousand Sons retinue for 305 pts with 3 rhinos
- moves as fast as a rhino 30cm until they get shot up but should be good for at least one move
- 6 units / 9 with rhinos
- negligible shooting BUT nice firefight at 4+
- SR 4, Initiative 1

Or to another - Deathwheel at 275 pts
- move 30cm
- 4 DC w/ 4+ RA Fearless
- Awesome shooting, awesome 4 firefight dice at 3+
- 2 void shields as well
- costs 30 pts more than joke carnis and hive tyrant
- SR 4, Iniative 1

Nerfing an army that has 34% wins and 32% losses by taking away one or two activations while giving very little back (the cheaper zoan and MW on trygon are nice, though).

Meanwhile Speed Freaks are sitting at 55% wins and 22% losses. Ulthwe at 56% wins and 27% losses. Thousand Sons 46% wins and 31% losses. All 3 of those w/ more than 50 games in Epic UK tournaments.

I appreciate you coming to this forum to announce these changes and that the Epic UK is a closed development group. The above are just my opinions. Since I don't attend tournaments those opinions are probably worth zero, but I think you can expect to see 'nids stop showing up at tournaments as what made them competitive has been restricted.

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Speed freeks and Thousand sons have been reviewed and had certain prices increased in the last year

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Feedback is always read and thrown into the mix for changes.

For those unclear as to where EUK are looking at the moment, we are working on a Squat list.

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Stupid question but, where should feedback actually be directed? Which section on the forum?

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Post here, PM one of the committee, at tournaments or to the tournaments email

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Well, that makes the brute swarm change more of a 'retooling' then 'improvement' from my point of view.
Peeps really must have trouble playing against Nids up north.

I am looking forward to see if the update leads to new builds that can stand up to the usual power houses like Eldar, Marines, Speed Freaks and their likes.

On the other hand, the Tau update looks great *thumb up

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Personally I think you have missed a few of the more interesting buffs in the Nids list. There are a number of formation types that are much more usable now. Whereas before it made no sense to take anything other than Assault swarms backed up by Harassment and Subterranean swarms.

However if you want to spam Assault swarms it is still perfectly possible. For instance

Assault swarm (Big) + Garg
Assault swarm
Assault swarm
Assault swarm
Assault swarm
Assault swarm
Genestealers
Genestealers
Genestealers
Harassment swarm + Gargs
Harassment swarm + Gargs
Subterranean swarm
Spore Mines

100+ units and 13 activations still seems fine to me.

However now there are at least some other options, that might at least temp me away from this style of list.

Nest swarm + 4 Biovores for 4BP garrisoned artillery at 275pts
Big Brute swarm - 2 Wiged Hive Tyrant + 6 Exocrines for 26 AP5+/AT6+ shots combined with 5+ RA at 350pts
Scout Titans - which are now at least playable.

Just to name a few.

*spoiler: personal opinion incoming*

I think the statement 'that might at least' sounds like a good description of the initial reactions.
The update overall is a nerf, with possible new options. Maybe. Time will tell.

I would personally love to field a 'big beast' Tyranids army with lots of brute swarms, titans, etc so hopefully this is a step towards it.

Thanks for your efforts and hard work as usual.
Looking forward to the Squats!

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