I would probably limit aircraft uses to 3 in a ground based miniatures wargame.
1. Shoot things in the air.
2. Shoot things on the ground.
3. Transport.
Which is what I did above

Personally for me the idea for retaining he existing orders is for consistency rather that inertia.

The off table component came from when I reviewed the published vehicle speeds, and realised that a lightning should have a move rate of 1,100cm (assuming a linear conversion rate).

Primarch, to answer your questions:
1) how do fliers defend themselves when transporting or bombing?
With ground based air defence providing defence, and fliers of their own defending them.
A lot of ground based aa has been added to the 40k universe in the last couple of decades, very little of which has made it into the epic lists. No fliers will be "moving with impunity" past a battery of manticores with sky eagle rockets on first fire orders You need to neutralise them first.

2) fliers in armies with too few activations are dead.
Air defence again. Bring enough and you can cover your bombing run. Don't and you get the situation you describe. Just because you can strike across to the other side of the board from the get-go doesn't mean you should. Tactics and setting up assaults are critical.

3) flying low provides no benefit.
With more ground based air defence available flying low helps to block Los and therefore protect you from air defence. A bit. Perhaps it is worth it, perhaps it isn't. Depends on the situation. There is always the option to remove this I suppose.

So what you end up with is cat and mouse based on activation count, cat and mouse based on safe fire corridors, and rules that encourage tactics and allow a lone Thunderhawk to scream into the enemies deployment zone and unload hell, but punish you for doing so without neutralising the air cover first. Which to me is how it should be. Fliers in the grim darkness of the far future are glass hammers and need to be supported.

But your points raise an interesting point I wanted to make. In my opinion no rules change can really be made without a review of the fliers and aa units in the different armies, because of the importance of ground based aa in what is a ground based wargame.

Perhaps what I have proposed above is better off in the alternative rules forum, or platinum or something, where more of these ground based aa units are (going to be) available. I think in a ground based combat game, you need a healthy amount of units able to engage the future space planes, otherwise you are just a pedestrian. Getting bombs dropped on you.

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Magnus, we have been abusing this thread for this conversation! I keep forgetting to ping Primarch to get this stuff into a new one.

Both Magnus and Matty, those are excellent responses and help my perspective a lot, let me get my plate cleared off at work and do some hammering on these.



Can someone explain to me the appeal of activation count? that is the key reason I will not touch EA and that fact that it is mentioned in Matty's posts above has me curious.

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Hi!

These are core rules, so its technically okay to have them here. If one topic got to the point that its overwhelming the thread, then perhaps I could siphon it out.

For know I like that it is all in one place.

Primarch

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Hi!



Well, that is what we all try to do. The trick is how.



Understood. Problem is that sometimes consistency cannot be achieved if order mechanics design for ground forces are used for flier without taking into account their particular traits.



That is the catch. AA as defined by ground orders is woefully inadequate as an airspace defense. Its not only a matter or variety of AA units, but a matter of what and AA unit can do as far as its design to interact with incoming fliers.

If we only let them fire "once" as per ground orders they will not be as effective as say "fire once per sortie in range". Orders could define AA coverage radius versus accuracy or some such mechanic.



But sometimes you can't "being enough". That is the problem, ever you can or you can't there is no middle ground. Either you spent enough points to go around the problem, or you just spend none. All or nothing. The system needs to be effective at formation numbers in between those two extremes.



I'd probably remove it from the system, if a tangible risk versus reward strucutre regarding flying low cannot be done.

The reason for flying low is greater accuracy to engage targets. The risk is greater accuracy from incoming fire. That is a clear demarcation of risk versus reward. As it stand now there is none.



I understand the cat and mouse part, but that IS the problem. It's cat and mouse so long as the forces in the air are roughly equal. If one has too many or none at all there is a clear (and often times overwhelming) advantage to that side.

There is also no way for aircraft to intercept incoming fliers since movement is per orders on an alternating fashion.

In theory it sounds good and feasible, in practice it is very easy to exploit. That has been the issue with all these flier systems.



Agreed. AA as it stands now are woeful inadequate compared to its effective roll in actuality as well as documented in the "fluff" background.



It should remain here, since the creation of an effective air combat system is one of those basic, yet crucial aspects of any net epic revision.

I will make some commentary on some alternate systems used/proposed in the past in a separate post.

Primarch

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You make some great points here Primarch.

So adding a mechanic like a free snap fire when fliers enter range. Sold!


So it will be a bit like titans and anti titan weaponry. Normal ground units can shoot at a titan, but really they are stripping the shields. The big guns do the work. Don't bring enough of them and you will struggle. Same applies to AA. I know this argument has it's flaws, but if you make the rules so that if you don't bring aa and can still deal with fliers, what's the point of hydras? They will just sit on the shelf.


Sounds like you just wrote it. +1 to hit when low. Perhaps lose "shoot the thin part" if +1 to hit is too powerful?


With the new massive point values for fliers I think this will be less of a problem going forward. 3 lightnings will cost more than most titans.
Alternatively make fliers special not support? That would certainly limit their use in our group! It would allow the flavour to be retained, without the dominance.


This is the most important part, and the place where my carefully constructed stack of cards (potentially) comes tumbling down . Who gets to activate last is at a big advantage as they can move their fighters behind the bombers and let rip with everything they have. Unless the bombers have already shot and destroyed their target.
Possible solution are:
No one can start activating their fliers to move until after all ground units have been moved for both sides.
This resets the "activation advantage" so that an army with lots of ground units isn't automatically at an advantage in the air. Players then alternate activating their fliers. The player with the most flier units is then at an advantage. As they should be.
I move my bombers into position.
You move your fighters behind my bombers.
I move my fighters to intercept your fighters.

When the shooting starts things need some clarity.
Option 1:Fliers on charge orders (air intercept) shoot at the start of the advance fire segment.
This gives your fighters a chance to shoot down my bomber before it shoots. If I have the initiative it gives me a chance to bounce the fighters before they hit the bomber.

Option 2: All flier shooting is resolved in the advance fire segment as normal, being activated one after the other along with the ground units.
Depending on what else is going on I might let you take a shot at the bomber if it means I can shoot at some other target of priority. None of this is in a vacuum.
I like the first option better, as the critical thing is giving you a chance to intercept.

Note that I haven't given a great deal of thought into how this will go with evolution. It would require some adapting. Sorry Bissler.


Agreed. It needs some work, and some play testing to find the loopholes, and to be taken to the maximum to see what can be exploited. But personally I don't think it's worse than the current system, and satisfies my obsessive-compulsive desire to get flier movement up to a reasonable amount.


Hooray! We agree!
Giving infantry on ff the ability to shoot fliers is a partial fix. The alternative rules that have things like battle tanks shooting at them are inelegant and don't sit well with my internal reality-o-meter, but understand that it's a patch up fix.


Look forward to reading it.

With the adjustments above is this looking any more plausible as a flier system, and worth my while expending some energy on, or am I flying solo here?

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Hi!



Something like that.

An AA unit with first fire unit cannot move or engage ground targets, but may "snap fire" each formation sortie that comes within range

An AA unit with Advance Orders may move and fire at ground targets (but not both air and ground targets in the same turn), but its effective air cover range is reduced to half its stand range.

An AA unit may double move and not fire (like any othr unit).

Like that.



Point taken.



Shoot the thin part is/should be a global flier ability since they strick from above. That only modifies the armor save. An addition of +1 to hit when flying low, but also granting a +1 to hit from incoming fire is more where it needs to be. So flying low makes hit easier, it also makes being hit easier. Good trade-off.



Unfortunately, those values from the formula are more of a placeholder for fliers. With no decided upon flier system and accurate assessment of what relative value each flier stat has is unknown. They look expensive now since its just a raw application. But if fliers have no move stat, or CAF is just for non-fliers and other changes impacts the value of a flier due to the meaning of the stats.

At this point we need to make a system that is agreeable, then we can fix values accordingly.



This is the main challenge. One proposal was to make a flier phase that goes AFTER the ground combat phase. This avoids the "first turn problem". It still does not fix the activation problem, but lessens it, since players have an entire ground turn to set up AA assets and such. Not the best solution, but better than a flier phase integrated into the ground combat phase.

If such integration was wanted and desired, then we're back to square one with the issues.



If your willing to go with something like this where an "order", like charge means your acting in the "advance" segment, why use the orders at all?

Would it not be better to just make an order independent system and make fliers behave as desired?

Just a thought.



For that system an order based system does NOT work. I've tried it.

For that particular variant you going to have to come up with something drastically different.



This is usually what I think when I design something. How to break it. It's just too easy to break an order tiered system. Once you go down the road of making extra rules to "plug" the holes, is it really worth it?



Hehe. The thing is it becomes "inelegant" because we have restricted the "design space" to orders, particularly ground based orders. I think some very elegant systems can be made if you ditch that paradigm.

The problem has been that players have some deep desire in getting fliers to function like ground forces and their orders.

The short answer being, it is not going to happen.



All designing discussions are worthwhile. It's only that I have the advantage of being hear for other revisions so I can point out flaws on concepts that have been tried.

You can never really tell what a fresh perspective may bring. Who knows maybe you have the right fix in your head and it just needs some discussions to coax it out.

Primarch

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Hi!

As I am rather fond of irony, one idea that was proposed (more than once) across the years and never given validity was the epic 40k flier system.

Of course given how most net epic players felt about epic 40k at the time it no real surprise. But perhaps that short term tunnel vision (of which I am also guilty) never let this idea fly. While I personally loathe the overall system, I thought the flier system was very good. Elegant and too the point.

As you'd suspect it is not an order based system like the tradition ground forces orders. In a real sense it does have "orders" (called missions), so whether you represent them as an order counter or some place-mat (like epic 40k did) is immaterial.

Of course there needed to be some modifications, but they were minor. I have reproduced it below to the best of my memory, filling the holes where necessary.

At the beginning of each turn fliers are assign one of three orders/missions. The actions are executed during the combat phase. Any mission/order can be used be used in any segments of the combat phase, but counts as a player activation (a use of a turn during a combat round).

1. Ground attack- the act of engaging ground targets.

Flier starts at owning players table edge and flies in a straight line with a 90 turn at any point of its flight path.

It may take AA fire from such units within range along its path.

It may be intercepted by fliers on these orders.

Surviving fliers of the above two actions may continue to execute a ground attack with any weapons it has resolving shooting attacks normally.

Once attack is completed it will continue to move in a straight line off any board edge, but which edge used impacts the refueling roll (described below).

2. Intercept - act of engaging other aircraft in dogfights

The fliers start at the owning players edge and move in a straight line with one 90 degree turn. Once fliers are engaged an immediate round of CC (dogfight) is performed, results applied and survivor move off table in a straight line (as with ground attacks which table you exit determines refueling roll).

Fliers may be engaged by AA unit in transit. Survivors may conitnue with mission.

Interceptors themselves may be intercepted. Both players can "intercept the interceptor" as many times as they have formations with such orders. This is how transports and ground attack units are protected. But the player decides how many formations on interception he wishes to commit.

Each formation on intercept missions/order can fight ONE round of dogfights before leaving.

3. Transport - the act of deploying ground troops from fliers.

Flier start at table edge and fly in straight line with one 90 degree turn.

Fliers may be engaged by AA.

Flier may be intercepted.

Survivors continue mission.

Flier may land and deploy ground troops.

Before it lands it may fire all weapon to target opposing units with 25cm of landing zone.

If troops have flight/jump packs the flier need not land, but cannot fire its weapons as it is doing a quick pass to let its troops "jump out".

Once troops are deployed it can exit any table edge with the usual repercussions to its refueling roll.

4. AA units - units which can engage fliers.

AA units re ground units and use ground unit orders.

An AA unit may not fire at aerial targets and ground targets in the same turn.

AA fire at aerial targets is for EACH leg of the fliers trip. In effect one formation may be fired twice upon it by the same AA battery. Once for the incoming trip and once for the outgoing trip. This makes it VITAL to choose the best paths for entry or exit.

An AA unit on First Fire orders may not move but may fire all its attack dice ONCE per each flier formation that comes in range.

An AA unit on advance orders may move and fire ONCE per per each flier formation that comes in HALF its normal range.

An AA unit on charge unit cannot fire, but double moves.

5. Refueling - the act of fliers preparing for another sortie.

Flier assets require a lot of preparation. Once used its not a given they will be ready for the next turn.

Each activated flier formation rolls 1d6. A successful roll means the formation is ready for another mission next turn. A failed roll means it takes once full turn to refuel, but is ready the turn AFTER. So any flier formation regardless of roll is only out one turn maximum.

The target number for the roll depends on what table edge the flier formations exists from.

4+ owning players edge
5+ side edges (nuetral)
6+ opposing players side.

Note while it is always netter to exit from your own side remember you can be intercepted or fired upon by AA weapon on your way out!

Players must make the tactical decision of a shorter safer way off the board (but harder to refuel) versus the longer more dangerous route (but easier to refuel).

The risk reward ratio stimulates good tactical play.

Note there is no "fly high" or "fly low" in this system though it could be added easily.

I've mulled over this system for about 15 years. The only reason it has never been given a chance is the system it came from. Fruit from the forbidden tree and all that.

I have had a very tough time poking holes into this system for net epic use. Its only been through the wisdom of the years to recognize how good such a system is.

Primarch

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I haven't fully digested what you wrote here Primarch, but it looks really intriguing. I'll certainly have a thorough look into it.

Just to backtrack slightly, I came up with another flaw in my proposed system, but also a fix.

Imagine I have a traitor thunderhawk full of khorne terminators. My opponent has two units of lightnings. I have the initiative this turn.

Ignoring rules and the like for now, what should happen is the lightnings should have a crack at the thunderhawk on the way in. If they don't manage to nail it then it gets to offload it's troops. That is cinematic, and suspenseful, and what the players want to happen.

With the system as described above, my thunderhawk gets to fly in and offload it's cargo before the lightnings can shoot it. The owning player feels disgruntled at the alpha strike they were just on the receiving end of, and quits the hobby to take up fly fishing. While they enjoy spending more time outdoors, they do miss playing with toy soldiers.
The lightnings need to be able to interrupt the movement of the thunderhawk and have a shot at it. Like snap fire does...

So if I reverse what the order counters do (yes I'm still desperately clinging to the existing orders. Please bear with me ) and fliers on "air-intercept" (or CAP or whatever you want to call it) have first fire orders, and fliers on "deploy troops" are on charge orders, then the mechanic is extremely similar to the ground based order system.
The unit on first fire (the lightnings) get to intercept the unit moving, by calling "snap fire", making an approach move, and having a shot at it. This move and shoot is instead of their action for the turn.
This seems reasonably streamlined to me, and fits with the current ground based system quite neatly.

By doing away with the CAF based intercept you allow a shooting based intercept(snap fire) to happen while the enemy model is being moved, which is probably the biggest challenge in the air-assault thunderhawk scenario. Bombers making ground attacks are shooting in the advance fire segment so they can be intersected more easily, so are less of an issue here.

As the lightnings are making a move as a part of their snap fire action they in turn can be "snap fired", so a bomber or transport can be protected by a fighter escort or ground based aa.

1) I activate my thunderhawk and reveal it is on charge (deploy troops) orders. I start to move it from my table edge towards their target.
2) you declare an intercept, revealing your lightning unit to be on first fire orders. It makes it's approach move.
3) I declare an intercept with my hellblades, who are also on first fire orders. I move them into position.
I get to shoot at your lightnings with my hellblades. You get to shoot at my thunderhawk with the survivors. I then land my thunderhawk if it lives, and the terminators get out, and charge into the enemy.

So by using first fire for "air-intercept", charge for "deploy troops", and advance for "ground attack" you are allowing all sorts of possibilities.

One downside to this I can see is that it can daisy-chain into quite a long sequence of snap firing, especially when you include ground based aa. But I think it is workable, and I think it is reasonably straightforward, and I also think it has consistencies with the ground based game that lend it familiarity (so possibly some acceptance).

The above works for bombers too. Instead of an air-assault they are making a ground attack (advance orders), so shoot in the advance fire segment. They can be snap fired as they move, or the fighters (on ff orders) can move after them and make a shot in the first fire segment.

The only other big issue I can think of is what happens if I have one unit of lightnings, you have a thunderhawk, and I have the initiative. I would like to pass in this scenario, allowing me to intercept your thunderhawk as moving the air intercept to engage before you move would be problematic.

There are a few options.
1. I am allowed to "pass" and make you go first. i.e. the player with the initiative can choose to go first or second in the flier activation phase.
2. I am allowed to move first, fly across the board, and then snap fire when you move (as I'm on first fire orders).
3. I have to try and position my flier to predict where yours goes, so I can snap fire you when you are moving (as I am on first fire orders).

Personally I like the idea of being able to choose if I go first or second when starting to activate the fliers if I have the initiative. It is the simplest fix.

A bit of a wall of text, but I feel like it has helped to solve the unstoppable alpha strike issue.
Feedback welcome.

Edit. Upon reflection this system really does have some similarities to the epic40k system posted above. Call the three missions "advance", "charge" and "first fire" and they are pretty much the same thing.

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This most recent post above by Matty_C seems like a reasonably good fix.
____

To elaborate on my point at the end of page 6, there are two other reasons that I feel that any Flyer system has to stick with the standard orders, or derivations of them.

A. The only models in NetEpic that are allowed to act as they please are Command models. Unless we make all Flyers into Command models, they have to receive orders in some form.

B. The real, baseline reason the game uses Order counters in the first place. Transparency. SM2/TL and thus NetEpic uses Order counters so that the opposing player can see, generally speaking, what you are intending to do with that formation during that specific turn, and thus perhaps alter their plans accordingly. Or not. Either way, it gives information. If Flyers use a system that does not use any form of Order counters, then the Flyers become even more powerful as the foe gains no information about what the player intends to do with them this turn. Beyond what the model is built for anyway.
____

As to the current points values being "placeholders" that is both correct and incorrect. As far as NetEpic Gold is concerned, the current values for Flyers are as correct as the values for any other models. As far as NetEpic6 is concerned, no models have values at all as yet, as it is possible (if highly unlikely) that some of the basic stats may change what they are and / or how they work even beyond just for Flyers.

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Good points Magnus.
The use of orders also has a rule for when orders are forgotten.
What happens when orders are forgotten would need to be clarified for fliers. Do they stand down, do they get a shoot (with penalty) etc.

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Hi!

"A" would be a nice way of doing it. Just assign the command ability. Easy to price and understand.

"B" I would agree. Even the system I posted above, which was a non-order system originally could be modified (as in my proposal) to be an "order/mission" system.

As I'd propose it it would be: first fire, advance and charge for ground troops.

Ground attack, intercept and transport for fliers.

Each set of orders has its own descriptions tailored to the units it needs to serve.

You could even use the same counters as long as you knew they mean a different thing for each unit type (ground versus fliers).

A converted epic 40k system to net epic seems to be a good fit. As odd as it is for me to say such a thing.

Primarch

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Hi!



Correct, which was what I was trying to point out. Without interdiction of some form, its either too easy or suicide. Some mechanic needs to alleviate it.



You do realize that what you just described in covered in the converted epic 40k system that I mentioned?

The only difference is that instead of calling the orders first fire, advance and charge, I'm calling them ground attack, intercept and transport.

It simpler because I don't have to worry about combat segments at all. Since air missions just count as an activation. Activate whatever flier mission/order you gave when its you turn and the opposing player may intercept if any have intercept orders.

Fliers remain flexible effective and use 3 orders/missions. Not the ground troop orders there own, which are not tied to segments. It means you don't have to worry about order. Fliers do everything you want them to do with minimal tracking and fuss.

And its still tied in a lovely order paradigm bow.



What I proposed above covers all these contingencies and don't have to run into the long "snap firing" sequences.

You activate a ground attack or transport mission. Flier goes in, gets shot by AA along the way, it may be intercepted, but the opposing player can intercept your interceptors (and vice versa) with formations on intercept orders. Survivors continue their merry way to complete their given orders.

I was able to perform the same mission intents as you described, but with far less wording and clarifications. All I did is define 3 flier orders and remove them from the segment order. Each counts as one activation.

It not only works for net epic, it works as is for Evolution as well.



LOL! that's what I have been saying, except when you do it as I suggested, you liberate fliers from the segment order and you don't have to worry about activations anymore.

Also who has more activation doesn't matter much since I have the ability to block via AA or interceptors incoming fliers. So a numerically inferior flier force can play "defense" via interception and be able to defend its airspace adequately. Not really possible on the standard order system due to the segment restriction.

Under the standard scheme activations carry too much wait as well as initiative.

Since segments don't matter to flier orders, I can activate ground attack or transports at any moment. Giving the players to coordinate ground forces to take out AA zones or set up their own. I can no longer predict WHEN a certain type of flier mission gets used, since it can be used at any time as the players activation.

So the flier game becomes very tactical this way. A player must decide:

1. What missions/orders to give and what proportions should they be given in (more intercept? ground attack? transport? Mix? What ratio for the mix? etc.).
2. Once my orders are given when is the right time to use them? I am not bound by segments, but they do cost one activation. If I use my activation for fliers I have to delay a ground formation attack. If I have more than one interceptor formation, how may should I use?
3. What table edge to leave through? Close is safer, but may take more refueling time. Farther may decrease refueling time, but may be dangerous
4. Given that refueling is an issue, when exactly do I commit flier resources if I may miss a turn refueling? Unlike the standard system, a first turn strike may not be feasible or advisable.
5. An defensive AA grid is a viable tactic. You may decide on no flier at all! This is not viable under the standard system due to ow AA works. In this system and AA grid is an option.

So I would submit to you that the epic 40k system modified for net epic use, does everything you'd want it to do, with less wording and clarifications. Plugs the loopholes of abuse and still uses a 3 order/mission tiered system AND includes a resource management aspect (refueling) which is both flavorful and adds tactical suspense to the game (which it lacks under standard rules).

My question would be, are there any loopholes in that epic40k system as it adapts to net epic?

Oh irony how I loathe thee that I am here now championing an epic40k system mechanic. LOL!

Primarch

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Sure do! Seems we are both preaching to the converted here!


I think the critical thing is still which player gets to activate their first flier first. We have completed our ground movement, and it is the start of the combat phase. If I have the initiative and I have one unit of fighters on air intercept, and you have a thunderhawk, do I just pass? Let you go first, and then intercept? I haven't quite grasped that in the example you gave. I'm almost there mate...
As long as the thunderhawk can be intercepted then I'm happy. In the "orders based" system it can...



This is the same daisy-chain of snap firing sequences I was describing. Where there are cascading intercepts and aa shots. It's the same thing. But it is workable.



Well I know at least one Scotsman who will be happy about this!



What I was getting at here is that it might be an easier sell to get community buy-in. The same orders are used, with players already understanding them.



But this is possible under both, unless there is something I'm missing?
All fliers are moved at the end of the ground movement phase. Ground aa gets to snap fire at them, interceptors get to intercept and snap fire transporters. The only time segment restriction comes into it is for fliers on ground attacks, when these fliers are shooting in the advance fire segment after close combat has taken place. Since movement has already occurred at this stage, I assumed this wasn't a big deal. The land raiders have already disgorged their troops, and who is fighting on the ground has already been determined. Fliers will not be able to ground attack units on first fire before they shoot. This is the only significant difference between the two systems that I can see.
So this is the price that is paid for using the orders based system (or whatever it's called).


I have had a couple of goes at understanding this, and I can't quite get it sorry. Are you saying that you activate your fliers at any point during the combat phase, not necessarily at the start before the first firing takes place? So you can choose to land ground troops after the close combat phase, and (potentially) shoot survivors? This is a big difference between the two systems if you are. I suspect I am just misinterpreting something as that's not how I understood it to work.


Yep. And I'd put it to you that the system I proposed above does everything the modified Epic40k system does, possibly with less wording and clarification, if I was a more coherent writer!
Refueling could be added as the off table mechanic too if that's what people wanted. I made reference to some vague penalty to flying off the other side of the board, but this mechanic seems as good as any. I assumed players would want their fliers available every turn, but you know what they say about assumptions... It is probably a pretty good nerf actually.


I think what you have looks really good. My system has the ground attack fliers shooting in the advance fire phase, after close combat has taken place, while yours are shooting before the first fire phase has taken place. That is the main difference between the two systems really. I think they both have merit, and the wording can be simplified easily enough. It is probably just a matter of working out what is more appropriate for the timing of ground attack firing (before close combat takes place for the epic40k version, or in the advance fire sebment along with the ground units for the "orders based" version, and convincing the rest of the community (wherever he is ).


The times they are a changin'

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Hi!

The main difference Matty_C is that the epic40k modified system no longet would care about the first fire segment nor the advance segment of the combat phase.

In what you mentioned a "first fire" type order gets done in the first fire segment and the "advance order" type gets done in the advance order segment.

What I proposed based of the epic 40k system means I could execute a ground attack mission in the first fire segment OR the advance segment, a transport order in either the first fire segment OR the advance segment and the same with intercept orders.

They still cost the same on activation like any other activated formation, but I have "free" reign in WHEN executing that order since it is not restricted to specific segments.

This opens a wide amount of tactical options, since the traditional segments are separated by the close combat phase, under my proposed system I could wait for certain flier missions to execute after CC (say I engage your AA batteries in CC, destroy them and then execute ground attack and transport orders) or execute some in the first fire phase and any others I'd like in the advance phase.

The de-coupling of flier orders from specific combat segments (first fire or advance segments) give more flexibility to the flier use, but still makes you decide beforehand what those orders/missions would be.

You must determine the "what" (mission/order), but are free to execute when tactically advantageous (the when, since you can use any mission in any segment).

This system eliminates predictability. Since you can only know what formations have not been activated yet, but not their orders, since they can be used in any segment.

In the standard system you suggested, the opposing player knows which haven't been activated AND what orders you may have since they are coded into the segment (if your in the advance phase you know that the only eligible order is "advance").

In essence what I have done is integrate flier "fog of war" in a practical game mechanic beyond the mere "not showing the counter". This would be a "truer" fog of war since you cannot see my order until activated AND you cannot guess based on the segment of the game (since in my proposed system orders can be used in any segment).

This adds tactical depth through unpredictability and the sense of uncertainty regarding the potential orders a unused flier formation has.

I hope that was clearer.

Primarch

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Primarch


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Predictability is one of the main points to using Order Counters at all. For that reason I cannot agree with disengaging the missions from the combat segments. Also another reason. Flyers are already very powerful, and doing it that way would only make them even more powerful, which is not needed. Realistic perhaps, but not needed. IMO anyway.

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