Some comments on barrage points.
My interpretation of a typical barrage point weapons is:
2 (number of attacks) x barrage points x to hit roll x other things.

Effectively the barrage point number is used twice, once as a multiplier and once in the to hit roll determination.
Barrage points are only used to determine the to hit roll required, and not the number of attacks. So effectively they are being accounted for twice. I'd like to propose that the multiplier for bps is removed, and bps only determine the to hit roll. Unless I am missing something here, in which case please let me know!

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

You seem to have missed the following paragraph just after the list of the To Hit number values:

Note: If the weapon is a Template weapon that uses BP, you must compare the listed to hit number (if any) with the normal number needed for that BP. If the number is the same, then consider the to hit value as 1 for costing the weapon. If the number is different, cost the to hit by the difference. For example, 6 BP normally has a 4+ to hit. If a weapon listed as 6BP has a 4+ to hit listed, you would consider this value as 1. If instead it had a 3+ listed, you would value that as 1.5 for this entry, as that is one step better than normal for that BP.

In other words, I caught that problem and put in the above to fix it. Still, you have a point. The formula may be overvaluing BP based weapons by applying both the BP and the size of the template. Hmm, I'll have to look into that possibility.

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Net Epic Coordinator

I am considering the following changes to the Weapons section of the formula, based on comments about templates and BP weapons. I have yet to apply these to models to see how well they work, but they sound good. Feedback and opinions are welcome. TSM rules and Weapon Special Abilities are unchanged, so not listed.

D: Ranged Attacks

The value for Ranged attacks has six factors per weapon system. Each Weapon System (one line in the stat block) has it's own value calculated independently from the other weapon(s). The factors are: Base; Number of Attacks; Range; To Hit number; TSM; other modifiers. Once these factors are known they are then multiplied together to find the final value for that weapon system.

__ Base value

The base value for all weapons is 2 points. Weapons that use a Template multiply that by the value shown below. The Template value replaces Range and/or Attacks values if those entries say "Template" or a number of BP rather than having a normal entry.

_ Standard Template values:
6cm Barrage: 3.6
12cm Barrage: 14.4
Small Teardrop: 5
Large Teardrop: 15

For templates not found on the list above, multiply the length in cm by the width in cm and divide by 10.

__ Number of Attacks

The value for this is the value shown in the "Attacks" entry in the model's weapon stat line. If this entry says "Template" or a number followed by BP, then ignore this factor as it is included in the Template value. The exception to that is a model with the Weapon Special Ability of RoF (Rate-of-Fire). A weapon with that ability uses that at it's number of attacks in addition to using it's Template/BP value.

__ Range

The distance that a weapon system can hit targets within is very important. The default Range is considered to be 50cm, thus the Range (in cm) is divided by 50 to find the value for this factor. Standard Ranges and their values are:

15cm: 0.3
25cm: 0.5
35cm: 0.7
50cm: 1
75cm: 1.5
100cm: 2
150cm: 3
200cm: 4
LOS: 6

While these cover all existing, known units to date, there is nothing stopping players creating units with other Range values. Just divide your chosen Range by 50 to find its value. Minimum Range value is 0.1. Models that drop Barrages under them as they Fly overhead have a Range value of 1. Weapons that say "Template" ignore this factor as it is included in the Template/BP value.

__ To Hit Number

This is shown as the lowest number that the attacker needs to roll on 1d6 in order to hit the target, ignoring situational modifiers. This value is also a multiplier. For this purpose, a 5+ is considered baseline, thus values are:

6+ 0.5
5+ 1
4+ 1.5
3+ 2
2+ 3
Auto: 4

If a weapon has a number of BP instead of a normal entry, use the value that corresponds to the To Hit value for that BP. Those are:
_ BP _ To Hit
_ 1-2 _ 6+
_ 3-4 _ 5+
_ 5-6 _ 4+
_ 7-8 _ 3+
_ 9+ __ 2+

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Net Epic Coordinator

I think that is a big improvement Magnus.
It is a little more transparent anyway. The proof is in the pudding of course, bit it looks really good based on my initial read through it. Nice work

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

Magnus,

I know there aren't a lot of units that have one, but do you feel minimum range should have an impact as well?

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MadMagician
Epic Tyranids

Hi!

Probably not. It doesn't really come into play that much in practice.

Primarch

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Primarch


The Primarchload
Magnetized Titans Tutorial
Net Epic Gold
Heresy Rules

Oh, did I forget to mention that as well? So I did. Well, I'll have to fix that.

I do adjust for models with a minimum range. At the moment, I subtract half of the minimum range from the maximum range, and use the modifier based on that adjusted range. As an example, the Bombard:

This model has a Siege Mortar, which is listed as: 50-150cm, 3BP/, TSM-3. Thus to figure it's value as of Tweak3.1:
Base cost for a 6cm Barrage template is 3.
3 BP is *3
Combines fire is *1.5
Maximum Range of 150 minus half minimum (50 / 2 = 25) equals 125, cost of 125cm range is *2.5
TSM -3 is *4
Destroys Buildings is *2
Total cost is (3 *3 *1.5 *2.5 *4 *2) equals 270.

Siege Mortar with formula adjustments above (Tweak3.2 since Hit Locations are not as far along as this is).
Base value is 2 for all weapons
Value of 6cm Barrage: 3.6
Range: *2.5
1 Attack: *1
To Hit for 3 BP is 5+ so multiplier is *1
Combines BP: *1.5
TSM: *4
Destroys Buildings: *2
Total cost is (2 *3.6 *2.5 *1 *1 *1.5 *4 *2) equals 216. Still somewhat expensive, but not as much.

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Net Epic Coordinator

Actually, that brings up a question. Even though the formula adjustment did reduce the cost of the Siege Mortar some, if we replaced the base weapon value with the template value, the total cost of the weapon would be 108. Does that value sound better to people, or is that too much reduction?

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Net Epic Coordinator

In light of minimum range, and another issue I thought of, I've written the following paragraphs. The first will be placed just after the paragraph following the range values. The second will be placed just after the BP To Hit number chart.
______

To find the range value of a weapon with a minimum range, subtract half of the minimum from the maximum and use the value for that range instead. For example, a Siege Mortar has a minimum range of 50cm and a max of 150cm. From 150 subtract half of 50 (IE, 25) to get an effective range of 125cm. The value for a range of 125 would be 2.5.
______

If a weapon has a BP number in the Attacks area and combines fire, but has a normal entry in the To Hit area, then ignore the entry in the To Hit area as the combining BP will override that value (it is the only reason to have combining BP after all). If a weapon has a BP number in the Attacks area and does not combine fire, but has a normal entry in the To Hit area, then use the value for the listed To Hit regardless of what the BP rating would give.
______

Thoughts on these? Obviously, these (and a lot of the rest) will have to be re-written somewhat once the focus of the formula moves away from converting old models to making new ones, but I'll deal with then once the formula is more stable.

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Net Epic Coordinator

It sounds better to me. If it's not too much trouble could you please compare it with a couple of other "comparably powerful" non barrage weapons.
I feel like the bp part of the formula has been overdone a little up until now, probably due to the fact that basilisks get to shoot twice. Which makes them awesome.

I like the idea of the 3.6 instead of the 2, provided it doesn't go too far and under value the guns.

The minimum range mechanic you have is easy to apply, logical and transparent.
The rationale for the bp/to hit mechanic is sound too.
Good progress here mate.

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.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

I'm with Matty_C. Definitely like to see the comparison to know (as the Basalisk skews things a bit)

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MadMagician
Epic Tyranids

Hmm, good idea. I'll work up a comparison chart for common weapons and post that.

There are probably a couple of other bits that I've worked up for limited case issues that I've forgotten to post into the formula. I'll have to fish those out and write them up properly.

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Net Epic Coordinator

So far, I have only applied the Tweak3.2 modifications to the Space Marine army list model's weapons. A listing of those follows. I have skipped Special and Command models (and a few others) for this list.

Identical value for further columns left out to save space and typing. The 3.25 column is as per 3.2 except removing the base cost for template weapons to simulate replacing it with the template value.

There does seem to be some odd variation among models with identically named weapons. It may be worthwhile to examine those in detail at some point (and probably in another thread).

Typical Weapons found on NetEpic Gold models

Army & Weapon ____________________ Tweak3 _ 3.2 _ 3.25
SM Tactical Bolter __________________ 2
SM various Bolt Pistols _____________ 1 per attack
SM Devastator Heavy Weapons ________ 12
SM Flamer Flamers ___________________ 3
SM Terminator Storm Bolters _________ 8.4
SM Bike Bolter ______________________ 0.5
SM LS Assault Cannon ________________ 4
SM LS Missile Launcher ______________ 4.5 __ 5.4 __ 2.7
SM LS Multi-Melta ___________________ 6
SM Contemptor Bolters _______________ 2
SM Deredeo Missile Launcher ________ 13.5 __ 8.1 __ 4.05
SM Furibundus Lascannon _____________ 9
SM Punisher Assault Cannon __________ 6
SM Robot Lascannon __________________ 9
SM Scatolo Combat Flamer ___________ 25.3 _ 67.5 _ 33.75
SM Scatolo Assault Cannon ___________ 4
SM Scatolo Support Lascannon ________ 9
SM Scatolo Support Missile Launcher _ 6 ____ 7.2 __ 3.6
SM Hunter AA SAM Launcher __________ 24
SM Land Raider Lascannon ___________ 18
SM Predator Autocannon ______________ 9
SM Predator Lascannon ______________ 12
SM Razorback Plasma Gun _____________ 3
SM Razorback Lascannon ______________ 4.5
SM Sabre Laser Destroyer ____________ 9
SM Vindicator Thunderer ____________ 18
SM Mole Mortar _____________________ 30.4 _ 36.5 __ 18.25
SM Rapier Laser Destroyer __________ 12
SM Tarantula Lascannon _____________ 27
SM Thudd Gun _______________________ 27 ___ 16.2 ___ 8.1
SM Whirlwind Multi-Launcher ________ 27 ___ 16.2 ___ 8.1
SM Thunderbolt Autocannon ___________ 6
SM Thunderbolt Rockets _____________ 12 ____ 7.2 ___ 3.6
SM Marauder Battlecannon ____________ 9
SM Marauder Lascannon ______________ 12
SM Marauder Missiles _______________ 36 ___ 22 ____ 11
SM Thunderhawk Rockets _____________ 81 ___ 32.4 __ 17.2
SM Thunderhawk Battlecannon _________ 9
SM Dropship Battlecannon ____________ 9
SM Support Drop Pod Plasma Cannon __ 13.5
SM Deathwind Drop Pod _______________ 1.13 _ 3 _____ 1.5

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Net Epic Coordinator

8.1 for the whirlwind launcher. Seems like a bargain. Will have a think about these.

_________________
.'.
http://ragged-they-kill.blogspot.com.au/

Keep in mind that the above values are just for the weapon, not for the whole model. That is probably obvious, I suppose, but worth reminding. I'll post more soon.

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Net Epic Coordinator