Well, I am going to try a 'ground pounding' version, majoring on the strengths of the list, to establish whether this number of large Fearless formations are a problem. The intention is to occupy the centre of the table and threaten the opposing Blitz if possible. Following the wraith theme, the main formations will ignore trivial things like terrain, enemy fire etc - unless the enemy inadvertently gets in the way of course . . .

625 4xWG + 2xWG + 3xWL + Wraithseer
525 4xWG + 2xWG + 3xWL
375 4xWG + 2xWG
375 4xWG + 2xWG
375 4xWG + 2xWG

Then either
275 Void Spinner
250 Falcons inc Firestorms
100 Ranger
100 Ranger

OR
175 Night Spinner
200 Vampire
150 Guardians (in the Vampire)
100 Ranger
100 Ranger

The first option gives long range support fire and some AA cover (usually needed at the start of the game in the UK), whilst the second option gives an extra distant assault / support with more limited artillery support.

Thoughts guys?

(Note, I intend to give WBs and 5x wraith formations a miss for this test, though that will come later; you will observe that there are 5 strong wraith formations that could easily be rejigged to be 6 slightly weaker ones . . .)

One thought, do you allow the Spiritseer and Wraithseer to summon the avatar, an ability that is slightly different from Farsight?

For example, I thought that the Warlock titan could not summon an avatar, even though it has farsight.
Have things changed?

If unchanged, perhaps a note could be added to the relevant units that can summon the Avatar.

They can both summon the Avatar as written - instead of giving it a separate rule, the Avatar listing in 4.2 says "In the Strategy Phase of any turn place the Avatar within 15cm of a unit with the Farsight ability before making a strategy roll."

Interesting list! You can't take Void Spinners outside of Biel Tan, though (I keep reaching for one in my lists too, mostly for long-range assault prepping). I haven't been able to get a full game with the list yet, but have been trying out unit-on-unit combats to get a feel for the list. The Wraithguard/Wraithlord formations are currently my favourite footslogging unit: I've tried 4+2 and 6+3 so far.

Will be looking forward to see this. Both look like a strong build (with the exception of the Voidspinner )
Not sure you need to be afraid about air attacks, especially if you take the second build. The attacks will most likely just kill a stand or so.
Still think you will have a hard time winning, perhaps do a "AMTL" and go for a draw and win on points with all those fearless RA4+ guys. I would keep the Vampire off board until objectives need to be taken.

Thanks for the catch on the Void Spinner, I should have known better my bad I will have a little think about the final list (if only to keep my opponent guessing a little )

However, I have rechecked the original Swordwind and 4.1 to confirm the entry about the Avatar is also wrong IMO. As currently written, the Warlock titan could also summon the Avatar and using the commander ability, either could drag the other into an assault with 2x Inspiring quite apart from a ridiculous amount of MW and TK dice.

The difference between Farsight and the ability to summon the Avatar has always caused confusion, which is one of the reasons why adding the note to those units that *can* summon the Avatar is helpful IMO. The note against the Avatar in the Biel Tan list should read

"In Grand Tournament games the Avatar must start off the table. At the start of any turn (including the first) it may be set up on the table within 15cms of a Farseer. In the End Phase of the turn the Avatar returns to the Webway and is removed from play. Once the Avatar has left it may not return."

In the Iyanden list the entry should possibly be written

". . . . may be set up on the table within 15cms of a Farseer, Spiritseer or Wraithseer. In the . . . . ".

It is also worth noting that the E-UK list does not allow Spiritseers to summon the Avatar, possibly because these formations are considered to be powerfull enough already without the addition of the Avatar . . . .

Ok gents I have made the first round of changes to the list. This essentially is adding a MW to the EA on WB and adding the may summon Avatar to those units with farsight.

Ginger I know you raised this in the above posts and I am aware of the discussion on the BT thread also. As was stated in the BT thread the summoning of the avatar could happen by any model that had farsight I have checked my copy of the TP 2012 which indeed has it as farsight as the requirement not the farseer.

I am aware that EUK don't allow spiritseers to summon the Avatar however my take on the Iyanden spirirtseers is that they are the farseers for Iyanden and hence retain their abilites. In so saying I guess some consideration should be given as to wheather they then have a farseers other abilities ie Commander (note Invulnerable Save was removed given a third save on a RA4+ was over the top)

Anyway I am sure not everyone was aware of the ramifications with the current wording so lets see how it plays out.

Cheers

Mic

Thanks for adding the note to the various units, that allows some flexibility to remove the ability if deemed necessary. However, I quite understand the logic regarding the Spiritseer summoning the Avatar and that we would need to test whether the Warlock summoning an Avatar was actually OTT or not. I know this was discussed way back when Swordwind first came out, but don't have access to the relevant posts any more.

For now, I suggest not adding "Commander" to the Spiritseer. The army is currently considered OTT and in this context "Commander" with "Farsight" in a large Wraith formation could be very strong indeed; it is one of my favourite uses for the Guardian Farseer. That said, "Commander" might possibly be more appropriate if the size of the Wraith hosts was restricted to 5-6 units in total.

Meanwhile I am furiously painting WG and WL, as I have devised a list that is legal for both Net-EA and E-UK. So I will be using it on Thursday and in the upcoming tournament on Saturday. While it will be a 'test', I may not be able to take many pictures, since the tournament games are usually ~2.5 hours long. I will also try to give an indication whether Spiritseers not summoning the Avatar was a problem, and whether the Automated Construct rule would have had an effect.

just take one photo of the setup and then a photo of the end of the match so people can get some idea how things moved around during the match.

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Sorry Ginger, so are you playing net ea or epic uk? And will you be playing epic uk armies or net ea armies?

Do you even play net ea?

If not I don't see the point of you playtesting the netea list with a epic uk army list against another epic uk list.

Also if you only pay epic uk what is the intense interest in the net ea list?

Cheers
Jim

You're right Jim, maybe Ginger should demand that everyone else at the tournament uses a list of his choosing.

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LoL Kyrt, since you will be there fielding Biel Tan, we can fight "Net-EA" should we end up fighting together. . . .

Jim, my list has been selected to meet the points criteria of both lists as far as I can; elsewhere you asked me to do some testing - I cannot think of a better way to do it than in an actual tournament. There is a minor discrepancy in points which makes the E-UK list 50 points more than the Net-EA one, but I suggest the difference is so minor as to be insignificant for 'testing' purposes. As to the validity of this 'test', all but two of the lists are likely to satisfy the Net:EA list requirements as well, so I expect these will also be as close to Net:EA lists as makes no difference.

FWIW, Eldar are my main army which I have been playing continuously for over 10 years. I tend to play E-UK, but frankly I get very bored with the elitism between the various styles of list, especially where trying out the various ideas are concerned. I would *really* like to have a single set of lists used universally, but the next best thing is to help the disparate groups to cross-pollinate each others ideas. As such I try to help the various developments as best I can, because ultimately my games will be affected directly or indirectly.

...So are you playing against Net:EA or Epic UK

I don't think playing against Epic UK lists will count as a battle report for testing this list

Sorry, I have clearly not expressed myself adequately. I did not mean for that supposition to be inferred by my comment. Merely that if the tournament is an EpicUK tourney, then testing the netea or gingers netea/epickuk hybrid in the said tourney will not deliver any usable data from which to make an analysis of the iyanden netEA list to feed back into development.

I certainly did not mean to suggest that Ginger write his opponents lists for the tournament. That's just absurd.

Ginger, your feedback on biel tan, iyanden and the many other lists is entirely valid and worthy of respect. You have shown that you have an excellent understanding of tbe game mechanics and the follow on implications of adjusting rules. I am certainly not questioning your credentials to have an opinion - that's also absurd - but what I am saying is that if people want to contribute in a meaningful way to list development then they must playtest that list in the same system in which it is used.

I also wish we had 1 system. I'm not sure why epic uk broke away. Some of their lists are superior in many ways to net ea - particularly tyranids - and others are not. Personally I like the spirit stones concept from the epic ul biel tan list. But overall I like the net ea version.

I hope this clears up any confusion with you kryt.

Cheers
Jim