Original post here=> viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28670
I'd suggest a refresher just to be up to date on the good debate in there.

A Dobbsy put the suggestions:
Predator formation: a 5-unit formation
Predator formation: Priced at 275
Predator upgrade: Added this to all Marine infantry barring Scouts and Terminators for +2 Preds
Vindicator upgrade: Removed from Assault formation.
Warhound: Singleton 0-1. Comes with a price reduction back to the old pricing
Vindicator: Weapon name changed to Astartes Demolisher and weapon stat receives Disrupt and IC FF
Land Raider Crusader: Anywhere you can take a LR, you can take a LRC
Land Speeder Storm: Add to Scouts.
Spacecraft transport: Dreadnoughts moved to AV section

==================================

My feel is that in isolation any one isn't that large a deal. Taken in concert and also in light this is the ultimate litmus test of Marine power creep, this is a lot of change.

I'd like to take a more conservative approach first and suggest the following changes instead:
Predator formation: a 4-unit formation. Allow +2 predator upgrade.
Assault Formation: Replace vindicator with +2 Predator upgrade
Vindicator Unit: Gains Ignore Cover in FF
Spacecraft transport: Dreadnoughts moved to AV section
Warhound: Singleton 0-1. Comes with a price reduction back to the old pricing

Gentlemen, thoughts?

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Dating back 4 years now, but along similar lines to this:

viewtopic.php?f=73&t=21121

Vindicator upgrade becomes Armor: add up to two of the following: Destructor, Annihilator, Vindicator for +50 points each. Add the armor upgrade to the Pred formation. From that you can now build:

5-6 strong pred formations
vindies with pred support
assault/tac(maybe even dev) with pred or vindy support

I don't think we should break existing build options, so I wouldn't want the assault marines to lose the ability to add vindies. Fine with the rest, aside from the Warhound change which would break builds.

I'd also like Land Speeders (or light vehicles) added to the Spacecraft transport (for the RG). That won't mess with any of the approved lists.

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I'd love to see an actual build that anyone has that has assault marines and vindis
(or a White Scars army while we're at it)

I believe there was some concern about AT proliferation on the +1 predator so if you're going to do it, you go whole hog.


I'm reading that as universally redacted to indicate the AVs on the space craft so we don't have Rave Guard Strike Cruiser simply to indicate the speeders. Yes?

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I've used Assault + 1 Vindicator occasionally in a handful of games e.g. here and found it fine, but nothing special. Do we really have to remove this option? 2 for 75 would be good - the formation would have ok shooting and have cover for the infantry. Dave's suggestion of rolling Pred and Vin upgrades into a 0-2 armour upgrade could be worth trying. It stops people taking formations with loads of attached vehicles would could be good.

Please, please, please DO NOT have a 250 point 0-1 Warhound. Stupid idea! The 0-1WH is fine and I strongly support it, but that one single WH is definitely worth the usual 275. 250 is too cheap, utterly not needed and makes it 1 an auto-include, whereas we're meant to encourage viable lists without it.

I agree Dobbsy may have made too many changes at once in that trial list. You haven't mentioned the smaller changes though - Typhoon cost reduction and reduced/widened Sniper. Both of these had popular support when discussed and/or poled and I hope can be retained. Epic-UK have had these two or even better versions for years with no problem.

I'm not very keen on Vindicator's getting ignore cover FF either, sure I can see a certain logic to it, but not at this stage of the game. There are several to a dozen or so units in the game with Demolishers, why should Vindicators get different stats to every other Demolisher Cannon in the game? Are Chaos Space Marine Vindicators going to change too? I suspect Steve54 would be against any change and CSM Vindicators perform well and haven't been suggested to need a change. If they're not changing then for consistency SM Vindicators should stay the same. I use a SM Vindicator formation in two thirds of my SM games anyway and find they do fine as is. My preferred option would be the +1 Vin for 50, 2 for 75, which Dobbsy also had in his 2015 trial list.

on vindicators, I think having an armour upgrade makes them too expensive, they just aren't as good as predators, I would much rather see them with a price break, 50 for one, 75 for two, that has had quite a bit of testing in the IF list and they have remained as underwhelming as ever.... giving them IC FF while thematic (it is their only gun after all) is probably not needed

I've used vindicators and assault marines a few times in the codex list and it's a nice little formation, just a shade too expensive when you're paying 100 points for the tanks

I disagree with limiting warhounds too, it's reactionary and not for game balance reasons, people play epic to use titans, don't take that away, especially at 4/5k where the limit is much less necessary... work on making preds a viable alternative and then the fluffophiles can use them without feeling they are handicapping themselves, while those of us who quite like having dogbots scuttling around can continue to do so..... I don't always use titans in my marine armies, but I like having the option and surely, reducing their prevalence actually weakens the list, which IIRC is what Dobbsy wanted to avoid with these changes

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Cool.
-Warhounds as before
-Hands off Assault upgrades (unless we do the Armour upgrade below)


Pricing concerns aside, I think collapsing three upgrades into a single is in general a good thing. We're all in agreement there, yes? We DO however need to figure out a combination of prices that reflect that in all likely hood it just means more Predator Annihilators taken. Perhaps that's just fine as the others are already situational units. In addition, allowing the Armour upgrade means that Assault Marines might be seen with the Predator Destructor, the increased FF being an advantage there.

So is it for now +50 each for 0-2 units OR do we want to try and attempt to tackle pricing at the same time? Kyuss, I feel your pain but it's not like they're getting more expensive in the Codex list by having a single upgrade either. The main issue I see with having a single Armour upgrade is that it's a klugey thing to try and write if we've got tiered pricing.
Is it
Vindicator: +50 for 1, +75 for 2
Predators: +50 each

OR do we separate the demonstrably more taken annihilators at +50 and Pred Destructors and Vindis with the +75 for 2?


I didn't need think I needed to. They were all approved by the ERC and went into the Codex list back in Dec
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28653

BTW I should check that the actual TP, NetEA site, and of course the PDF reflect that change.



If we decide to investigate this further then we should probably do it with more coordination with Steve and probably be the only topic of discussion. IIRC Steve stated he wasn't opposed conceptually (perhaps that was Onyx-memory fails) but I'd rather chew on less stuff at once anyways. To answer your question though, yes that would be a hard look at both loyalist and traitor vindis.

However just for completeness, the general logic was that if a unit has a single weapon and no small arms in it's statlines, then it stands that any shotting specials probably should be considered for their FF attack. For Vindis then that made sense to be IC as well. That then wouldn't effect say Baneblades or LR Demolishers via the judicious use of the Name, Vindicator cannon. Consider Vindi FF tabled however-it's a can of worms.

Before we move on, GlynG, if memory serves right you actually popped up with a damn fine idea somewhere in here about allowing vindicators to upgrade with a single shot hunter-killer missile. Dave/Kyuss, any opinions or thoughts? Does that cause gastric distress? It does have the elegance of not leveraging a weapon name change trick nor effects Chaos simply as it's a weapon addition and leave the Vindicator platform and Demolisher cannon as it currently. Remember, this list isn't even a Dev one. It's a concept list for Codex tweaks to see reaction.

RECAP
=================================
Vindicator Upgrade: Remove
Add Amour Update: 0-2 Pred (any type) or Vindicators, in any combination
Add to Predator Formation and replace any previous Vindi update locations (straight swap)
Spacecraft transport: Dreadnoughts moved to AV section

Open Questions
=================================
-Hunter Killer?
-Tiered Pricing on Amour or straight +50 each?

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I'm not keen on the Hunter Killer idea, occasional 40k vehicle upgrades aren't normally represented in epic and I don't think that was my idea. I reckon Vindicators are a niche but good choice at 2 for 75.

Probably the first pricing; 75 seems too cheap for 2 Predator Destructors IMO. What formations would have the armour upgrade? I'm guessing Tac, Dev, Ass, Pred and Vin?

it's more along the lines of 50 is about right for a destructor, compared to a HB razorback, it has 3 shots, better armour and FF and better range, 75 is borderline....

I think it shakes out at around 35 for vindicators, 50 for destructors and about 65 for annihilators, my feeling for the pred formation is that it's about right at 250 for 4 annihilators, but 4 destructors should be 225 max, IMO they work better as formation upgrades

finally, how does this shake out in terms of all the variant lists? are IF/BA tacticals supposed to get pred upgrades etc? is it at the discretion of the AC/subAC? I kinda like the structure of the IF list as it is at the moment, not opposed to more varied upgrades, but marines are already pretty flexible, adding the ability to pop preds and suchlike into loads of formations makes them even more flexible and kinda orky IMO.... would really need to see a few example builds/lists with the new upgrades system to get a good handle on it

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Assault, Land Raider, Predator, Tactical, Terminator all currently can take the Vindicator upgrade. I expect that we're attempting to straight slot the unified Armour Upgrade in place in order to not break existing build capabilities (backwards compatible) and simply add flexibility.

I'll note my hesitancy about 4 Land Raiders and 2 Predator Annihilators. I expect it's not game breaking but that IS a lot of AT, most of it on a RA chassis (taking +4 BM to break is good too ). However that actually might just be the answer to Warhound over-prevalence complaints too.


Your list, your upgrades/prices. I expect no changes required at this time. IN addition you can already do the above if you wanted in your variant list now so I don't think it upsets the china cabinet.

This is a concept list test to judge reaction as well and NOT a "Here's the New Codex list-please test". Stating that, Dobbsy's name will be changing to reflect that reality.


My personal feelings are close to this. However I'm fine with slightly overcosted Pred Destructor/Vindis if it significantly reduces complexity. Now to contradict myself, I totally love a bike formation and Pred Destructors combo for harassment duties so I shouldn't state they're not used, just more niche annd I'm OK with that.

For the record, FF3+ reduction is NOT open for discussion today.

sorry to dredge up old data but I'm taking a fresh look at all the great input you folks had mentioned here=>
viewtopic.php?f=73&t=28447

On this post Dave states:

Dave, any new thinking around this? Others, crush with logic.

On this post GlynG states:

Heretical concept warning ahead: perhaps every X tactical formations a Codex list gets a free captain? Gives some more reason to take Tacticals which are underrepresented if you data mine EpicUK. (not that they're not taken, just they're proportionally underused for the numbers the fluff states should be present).

Completely unneeded quote that gains the Awesome Sarcasm Award of the Day

Man some of the thinks you come up with leave me in stitches.

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I've done it once or twin, but admittedly in fun games just to experiment. Either way, I don't think it's a reason to deny the option.

On the Scars. I'd use them more if the upgrades were more inline with the Codex. I have another set SM models (all E40k-era) waiting in a box for that army.



Yep, effectively: May transport 20 infantry units or Attack Bikes; plus 20 armoured vehicle or light vehicle units (except Attack Bikes); plus six Thunderhawk Gunships and enough Drop Pods or Landing Craft to transport any other units being carried.



I reason it out that the Vindy is armed only with the cannon, so get's the IC. A LR Demolisher just gets better FF because it's armed with other stuff.



Nope, I still think Fearless characters would fit the fluff. Same for the Dread (and or inpsiring) but with the armour bumped back down to a 4+ (same as Pred in fluff/40k).

I agree that the Hunter Killer probably shouldn't be in a tournament list as it's a 40k upgrade.

I'd also pay 50/100 for 1/2 Destructors/Vindicators. They might be worth less but people are allergic to non-25 point increments for some reason.

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Going once, twice ... done and done (anyone have issues?)

Dave, what's the approach about pulling this one out of this and just amending the Codex and bringing it forth to the ERC synod to render judgment? It has 0 ramifications on any marine list at this time (unlike potentially the Dreadnought question)

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PM Steve with it, if he has no objectives the ERC votes on it.

It does affect current lists due to the Dreadnought category swap. I couldn't drop 2 Tacs and a Dev with dreads before. Now I can.

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Your wording above does not include the Deads to AV swap (nor do I want it to yet). We're not even sure it will ever actually be done so holding up the LV inclusion for something that may never happen seems a poor choice.

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It does include it, otherwise it would have to be:

May transport 20 infantry units, Dreadnoughts or Attack Bikes; plus 20 armoured vehicle (except Dreadnoughts) or light vehicle units (except Attack Bikes); plus six Thunderhawk Gunships and enough Drop Pods or Landing Craft to transport any other units being carried.

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doh! you're the best type of correct-absolutely correct

Would you like to move forward to the amended version above for BB and SC, simply to help standardize, now?

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