Dave and I have our differences, but in this case the shock lance and power lance are very similar to the dynamic behind Infiltrate which only grants the benefit when the unit is performing a charge move.

Further, P28 and P30 of the 1994 Titan Legions book clearly describe the mechanic as only happening when the knight performs a charge.

Based on the above, I see no issue with the way the lances work in the Knight list. I have more concerns with win/loss/ draw ratio having nearly twice as many wins as losses. That could be indicative of players still working to learn how to play against Knights or the knight list being a bit OP but time will tell which it is.

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-Vaaish

@dwarf supreme - I'm not disregarding the fluff on the lance.

@vaaish - that they only get to use it when they "charge" is the heart of the issue. The epic rule book (as posted) clearly indicates the assault phase includes both units moving into combat -as in charging or moving and firing or sitting back and blazing away. This is described in the epic rule book as the "counter charge".

Jim, even the core rules don't follow that reasoning with how the infiltrate SR works. Units with infiltrate only get the benefit when THEY make a charge move. The counter charge move is a different beast and doesn't grant the benefits.

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-Vaaish

I've played 10 games with the knights and if the lance could be used al lthe time you would have to bump up the price of the formations using them alot! They would have almost no drawbacks except crossfire, which is not that easy to get alot of times...

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

I think the list still need more work before it is approved. I urge things to be on hold till after Cancon at least. We have to players (myself included) rolling Knights for the weekend against some of Australia's best tournament players.

A couple of things i want to bring up into consideration.

Dave mentioned that at higher points, the list is a problem. As i understand it Tournaments are at 3k. This is the point value where everything is balanced, plenty of armies get to be to much to handle at higher points value and that represents scenario and fun play. Full balance is measured around the 3k value and that is what we should be looking at.

The crits, I'm fine with. It's very harrowing and i lost my baron and many troops from my BTS to a lucky Crits yesterday when playing against White Scars, but I'm ok with it.

The only Inspiring characters being for Infantry, This hurts, and hurts a lot when fighting swarm armies of Orks and Nids. I'd really like to see the senechals have inspiring as well as just Leader, they don't grant any extra attacks like most other unit commanders, I'd like to see that changed.

The Lances not working if I'm engaged i'm still not happy with, once an experienced player knows how the Knights play it is very, VERY difficult to get an engage move in. I know people will recite the fluff from '92 about Knights, and this is where i fell in love with them and decided one day i shall have a Knight army. But where do we draw the line with which fluff we use? Old rules not used anymore? Current novels? Current Editions of 40k in which the Knights are fine to run around the 40k board using there lances and what not.
I've always been in the interpretation that an engage is the representation of a game of 40k (As suggested by the rulebook) and is a whirling combat of cc and firefights, The knights would still be able to use there lances in this situation.


Waiting on Onyx i think is a good idea, He is attending Cancon this weekend and will see how both Knight lists go in this tourney, I know he has played your Knight army Dave, and seen how they fair over there and that's great! But the Aussie clubs on the east coast (Which are growing rapidly, our own club has almost had a HUGE increrase of new epic players, with more starting to pick up armies all the time) have a very different meta of play than say what is favoured in both Europe and the States.
More playtesting i believe is needed I believe in more clubs to see how this would pan out.

Hey Vaaish.
That is a good example. But not quite the same as conferring a combat ability.

I may be wrong but I cant seem to find any other assault (cc/ff) SR that are applied only if the formation itself charges?

Please note (warning gratuitous man crush alert) I have nothing but respect for you and your awesome work.

I can see there are clearly differing opinions. Im cool with that.

I haven't ignored any feedback, all I'm looking at is opinions and one battle report from you guys that was a win for the Knights in points. That doesn't do much to back any claims. If you want to give me feedback, run a few more games and show me the Knights are underpowered. And to be clear, it's not another 1 or 2 gaming groups who's results don't align with your opinions, it's all three groups who were responsible for 95% of the battle reports.

I get that you don't think the special rule aligns with the rest of the game, but you guys are the only ones who've said that to date. That's one group out of four. Plus, the list has been balanced taking how the rule works into account. To change it to make 25% of the gamers happy we'd be looking at more testing to balance it.



How would it be an improvement? Beyond aligning with your opinions?

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Dave

Blog

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Squats 2019-10-17

You're going to have to demonstrate that in a report. With a move of 25 or 30cm, the Knights have 10-15cm of move beyond most assault formations. That's more than enough to stay outside of the enemy's engage range.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

Thanks Jim,

I can't find any other examples. The infiltrate rule is the closest in that it provides a specific benefit that the unit wouldn't get if it didn't initiate the engagement.

_________________
-Vaaish

It's allowing the attacker more flexibility with regards to the direction of their attack, plus the ability to base to base more than enemy. I definitely think that's a combat ability.

Also similar type of rule is engaging infantry don't get cover saves.

If I'm interpreting your argument right, it would mean we could infiltrate when counter-charging and get cover saves all the time in an assault.

_________________
Dave

Blog

NetEA Tournament Pack Website

Squats 2019-10-17

I have some notes on the internal balance of the list (ie units that may be sufficiently superior to other units from the same list that they make the latter considerably less appealing) and on some potential power-combo ideas that might be a useful addition to the discussion.
I'll tidy them up and post them later.

I hate to be argumentative, but you are ignoring the fluff which clearly states that a Knight must initiate close combat for the shock lance to function. A counter charge is not initiating close combat, as Vaaish pointed out.

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"I don't believe in destiny or the guiding hand of fate." N. Peart

Im really not. The difference lies in our interpretation of the assault.

Dave its not one group. Its two. One of four people and one of 15 people. And its feedback from a bunch of games.
And batreps and feedback have been provided in the past. None of which was included by you in the playtesting lists. So if you create an environment where people don't feel like they arent being listened too.

I know you have already done a bunch of work on it.
But I think there is more paytesting and other ideas that can be included.

Also Dave please don't make this personal or emotional. Its just toys after all.

Cheers
Jim

I think Dave has been listening closly to us playtesters and does a really good job of including the community in the process.

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Ok, we'll try and get some more games up and playtested.

I'll be a t Cancon, pretty much the Australian Championship for epic this weekend with names like "Onyx" etc.
I plan to ask all my opponents to fill in a short questionaire at the end of each game to get some feedback as i won't be able to do full reports at a tournament. (I'll ask the other person taking Knights to this tourney to do the same)


Do you think anything else should be asked besides:
1.What did you see as the greatest strength of this army?
2. What did you see as the greatest weaknesses?
3. What part “surprised” you the most about how the army works?
4. What would you like to see changed?
5. What would you see your “experience” level is with Epic Armageddon?

I'll also attach both The Knight lists and the lists the opponents used