Sorry TRC, are you saying you want both FF and Shooting from both unit types?

History - The Destructor had its FF upped by requests to make it more attractive to be taken versus the always present Annihilator. The price was kept equal because of this.

No, not clear, just saying shooing is better than better assault because it is an assault list with many assault options. Because points are short I still wouldn't give it a look in, preferring better assault options. At 225 maybe I would, whether the FF was 3+ or 4+, but still the Annihilators at 325 with a hunter still look like a better option just because I can't get AT without warhounds otherwise.

OK all, so I've been mulling over the ideas put forward and here's what I think we can likely move forward with....

Direct inclusions:
Superior Tactics
Sniper all units for 50 points
Typhoon 1-2 25points, 3-5 50 points
Dreadnoughts count towards AV in Strike Cruiser/Battle Barge drop capacity allowing them to be dropped more and not count towards infantry slots. - this could move to trial if people feel it to be too much


Trial list items for possible later inclusion - test if you'd like to:
- Vindicator upgrade to Vindicator - possibly could go to direct inclusion. Points? Thoughts?
- Warhounds 0-1 EDIT - singletons (sorry for the heart attacks folks!)
- Predator upgrade to Predator for 275 total - quasi WH replacement? other ideas?


How do people feel about all these items?

Vindis should just be 4-6, no upgrade. Think everything other then S.Tactics should be trialed just to be kosher

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I feel pretty good about all of those ideas dobbsy. S. Tactics and sniper on scouts are good straight inclusions.

The typhoon change I like along with the pred suggested chage too. I agree with jimmy about the vindis

"Superior Tactics",
Please try to make crystal clear that the decision to add "free" transport (Pods and Rhinos) is made *after* the opposing army is known, but *before* any Objective markers are placed.
Also note that this will require a slight change to the Marine "transport" rule so that the they say the same things.

I agree that the Vindi upgrades probably should be added as well.

While I like the proposed Dreadnought suggestion, letting them take up vehicle slots in spacecraft, I wonder if this could be open to abuse. Admittedly, the most that could be added to a Space Cruiser is 10, for five Devastator formations at a cost of 500 points. This is unlikely at 3K points, but might be a little OTT at 5K.

I'm fine with all of the main changes, I think the typhoon should be 10 points each, but I know that sets people's OCPD off not having units with neat 25 point breaks

also agree with TRC that Destructors are a worse choice than Annihilators, the latter brings a solid anti-tank capability to the list, which it definitely lacks options for, the destructor is decent for assaults, but there are better and cheaper options around.... you certainly see a lot more Annihilators in lists in the UK, even though they cost 50 points more

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If that's the case I don't think that even lowering the price will change that. The Destructor's weapon load doesn't hit hard enough so the Annihilator will always have a better purpose. If it was armed with a better AP weapon then maybe people would take it more but we're stuck with it.

The 225 hunt gets some play as the cheapest way to field a hunter. But that is almost points left over in the list building... If you gave it a long barreled autocannon, so range 60cm, kept the FF at 3+ and reduced the cost to 225... I would probably still want the annihilators at 250

The Strike cruiser at 5K is still the same transport capacity though so you'd still only be able to put 10 in (plus extra formations on table for the cost). Of course in a Battle Barge for 5K you'd get 15 Devs in and 25 Dreads for a third turn drop but all the same issues with third turn drop still apply - enemy on OW etc.

What do other people think? Should it be put to trial instead?

Drop lists are rather random though and not so easy to test... If someone went wild with a strike cruiser and put 1750 of devs and dreadnaughts in it that is a flawed list in many reguards... (prob need a charachter in there as well, so 2000 with the strike cruiser). I suppose to get some more bodies down 2 tac, 2 dev, 8 dred, a character, strike cruiser 1700... You have in effect dropped another formation worth of bodies... back it up with 2 single warhounds, thunderbolts, terminators with chaplain and a thunderhawk? Viable list? Still dependant on the drop and objective placement.

If we are testing options throw it in the test pot, but I can't imagine very strong results against it. I guess the 3+ armour might give it a bit more oompth than I imagine, have only played it with 4+ armour.

I disagree with superior tactics. It is a totally BS special rule that doesn't make sense. Why should the marines be the only army able to do this?

What is the justification?
I think it is a too dramatic Change to the list that unfairly advantages marine players against specific lists.
There is no reason in the fluff that they should be able to do that and there is no balance reason that they should be able to do that.

And the preds should be left alone. There is no reason to change the points. There is a clear difference in role and capability, and both are equally effective in conducting their function at the alloted points.

I know these changes are hard to deal with for some people especially seeing as though anything that doesnt alingn with E euro rules seems to met by hysteria from the NetEA "community"...

I don't think in years of use there has ever been a problem with the rhino/drop pod choice option. Re the preds, they might be fine in isolation, but you are supposed to take the formations part in the army as a whole into consideration.

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