+1

Gly are you supporting a change or the status quo? The +1 is such an ambiguous turn of phrase.

Not in favour of that.
In fact, I just don't see Codex Marines needing many/any changes at all.
The Superior Tactics thing is possible.

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Hahah why? Is that just because it is in epic uk lists?
Am I right in thinking that you wont support any changes except those that are epic uk approved?

Rather than just arguing the changes on +1s or fluff or balance I suggest that people play test with their gaming group and post the results.
We plan on playtesting 60cm whirlwinds and 50point hunters. As well as the inclusion of some new air units - such as fire raptors and storm eagles.

Id like to invite you to do the same glyn and maybe we can discuss at CANCON over a frothy beverage? Are you still making the trip?

Cheers
Jim

The status quo. I quoted a line of Vaaish's that spelt out why it was a bad idea and added the +1. I don't use +1 very often but didn't really have anything to add in this case.


I'd like to but I'm not sure if I can really afford it / justify the expense. I'll probably make a call in the new year.

[Quote\]I'd like to but I'm not sure if I can really afford it / justify the expense. I'll probably make a call in the new year.[/quote]

It would be great to have you there. It is turning out to be a pretty big event.
If we have the West Australian boys attend we might even have to label it the Australian Championship event... or even the southern hemisphere championship... or we could just go American and call it the World Series!

Jimmy, I'm not at all interested in EpicUK comparisons at this point . I play in Perth mate .

I play against NetEA Marines all the time and they just don't need boosting.
Yesterday I played against 2 very different Codex Marine lists, 1 ground pounding with a Warhound and Whirlwinds and another that was teleporting/air dropped Terminators with ground support.
Both were great games. The ground ponders went to 4 turns with no Victory Goals for either player and a small Victory Points win to the Iron Warriors (a real arm wrestle). The 2nd game was a wipeout with the Marines claiming a 5:0 win over me (combination of some extremely amazing dice for the Marines and me forgetting an Infantry Company was on Overwatch at a critical moment... ).
Long range Whirlwinds would just make a drop list even more powerful, something that just doesn't need to happen.
50pts is too cheap for decent AA once all the variables are taken into consideration (ATSKNF, more freedom of placement than they used to have, 2 can cover an entire half of the board and are hard to suppress etc).

Marines don't have access to TK attacks unless they bring a Warlord. That's part of the list design and an engineered situation. They just don't rely on superior firepower to get things done (like Guard for example). They are a scalpel, not a sledgehammer.

As for Cancon, it's not looking great for me either...

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Want to play Iron Warriors in Epic Armageddon? Click HERE
Some of my Armies.
My Hobby site.

To be blunt I get 2 games a week, If I'm going to use those game for playtesting I'd rather test developmental/experimental lists or suggested solutions to actual issues in approved lists rather than solutions to problems that aren't there (or at least haven't become apparent in the last 8 years)

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You'll be reducing their AA range then?

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Of course you are welcome to play games with your own stats, indeed the game was designed with such flexibility in mind to allow people to play special campaigns etc. However this will tend to unbalance the list as people have said. More importantly it will tend to fuel the "Power creep" in the game, which we need to avoid at all costs.

One of the factors being ignored here is that the presence of a WW battery is a threat that deters the opponent from moving into it's 'kill zone'. Two or even three batteries extend this threat, which in turn will tend to keep most opponents at bay giving the Marines the initiative to move forward and claim territory and more importantly the position from which to strike.

So, 90cm is really OK, irrespective of rocket ballistics etc. This is a case of adjusting the tactics to match the formation capabilities, rather than the reverse.

Cheaper AA *might* possibly be an option, but all this does is allow some other formation to use the spare 25 points (eg to buy another RB), so it does not actually change the AA meta. Rather it makes the rest of the army a little bit more robust, which is probably not needed even with the "power creep" in the game.

And no, the Hunter needs the 60 cm range, which should not be dropped. The AA game is all about placing BMs; destroying enemy formations should be considered a bonus, not the primary aim of either the AA or the ground target.

Ladies and gentlemen,
Now I do believe that this is a discussion forum, not just a shut down discussion forum.

If you dont want to playtest some suggestions steve54 I dont mind.

I know marines are a versatile and competitive list. I have played and beaten them in all their varied forms. And just because it ain't broke for the last 8 years doesn't mean it can't be changed. When in actual fact dobbsy had made a few subtle changes over the years that has improved the list.

Increasing the range on the whirlwinds won't break the marines nor will it make whirlwinds an auto include. What it will do is increase the style of play and broaden some list design for marine players.

It aligns perfectly with fluff and wont overpower a still relatively expensive and niche marine support option.

The fact that someone spams 3 whirlwinds in a list doesnt prove that they dont need to be changed. It only highlights the ridiculousness of the unit and min/maxing tournament lists.
If air aslting marines are seeking to place a blast marker on a unit before an aslt they have plenty of cheaper and more effective unit at their dispaosal than a whirlwind unit. So wont make it an auto include for air aslt lists that people seem to think will consitute an alpha strike...

I place this post in the spirit that the thread was intended by senore dobbsy - not just to be told that people dont want to playtest or even consider changes.

Cheers,
Jim

Really? I can't think of a cheaper or more effective unit than a whirlwind formation if it can shoot 120cm. A warhound is often on a one way mission to lay a bm to a formation out of direct LOS and a whirlwind further forces people to spread out nicely.

A unit of marauder bombers or a Thunder hawk can place a bm nicely. And are both more than just one trick ponies.