I'm against either of the changes.

75 is appropriate for the Hunter and I normally take 2-3 in a 3k list. 50 is un-needed and too cheap and would significantly boost the number I would take and my AA defence.

Whirlwinds would be overpowered with long range combined with SM high strategy. SM chapters don't really go in for long range artillery and they're not able to hit the enemy deployment zone for good balance reasons. With longer range a SM player would have a good chance of being able to alpha-stike fragile enemy targets with a couple of Whirlwind formations before they have a chance to do anything. The army that came second place at a recent European tournament included 3 Whirlwind formations at 3k so they can do well as is.

No RA for Dreads either, 3+ is already overly generous for them.

Multi-Melta Attack Bikes I could live with. With HB I might take one in a formation to plink a target with a BM but a full Attack Bike formation would be pretty rubbish. How have Salamanders players found them? (they have MM in their list)

Lack of reach early in the game? Teleporting terminators, Spaceships, drop pods and deathwind, warhounds, garrisoned scouts and speeders?
All 120cm wwinds does is make air assault and Teleporting even better. SM have SR5, initiative 1, atsknf, air assaults, Teleporting, drop pods, mobility etc they really don't need long range artillery too.

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+1 to this

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+2

steve54 nails it. +1 to that.

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Brumbaer did quite well with multiple Whirlwinds at the EEC, winning all of his games. How bad can they be?

Oh the netea lists don't let marines choose between rhinos and pods? I had imagined that was universal by now

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+ 3

And in a LC with planetfall whirlwinds can spring a very nasty surprise on baseline formations in turn one. As Others say or intimate you have to include the air capability in these considerations.

Aye they've got good enough range. Not sure if the price is correct or not but that's another can of worms. Marine lists without teleporting termies also could beenfit to see 4-6 on the formation which makes them a bit better at higher points. IIRC Siege Assault Vanguard, Iron Hands, and SoI IIRC all have them as an option. Might be something to consider for the codex perhaps?

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What the hell are you guys talking about Alpha strikes with whirlwinds? You know its just 2 templates? Not a tactical nuke!
Nevermind... you guys dont play DBM by chance do you?

Regardless of the 'reality' of rocket assisted artillery, with SR5 marines just don't need counter-battery fire adding to the long list of 'stuff they are the best at'

They have plenty of alpha-strike options without the need to be able to take out enemy arty/AA from the baseline or prep an engagement pretty much anywhere on the table

Also I think the point of hunters is less to shoot every plane out of the sky, but more to dish out blast markers to formations that are air-assaulting you, with ATSKNF they're that bit harder to suppress with a single plink like hydras and skyrays.... they're expensive, but I've never felt lacking in AA cover in my games with 1-2 hunters and a tbolt formation, and it does appear that the UK meta is particularly Air-assault heavy....

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Totally agree on the principles of AA here. AFAIK AA was only ever intended to add a BM; causing damage and especially destroying enemy air transports is a bonus, but *not* the main aim.

• Adding BMs increases the likelihood of the a/c failing to activate
• Placing a single BM during the approach move makes air assaults much more likely to fail unless the assault has other compensating factors

Now this is a nice idea Rug. Never been sure why DNs are AV but get counted as Inf for space. I guess because of the Thunderhawk?

If Superior Tactics gets put in, how would people feel about the Strike Cruiser having:

Orbital Bombardment
OR
2x Pin-Point Attack

as part of ST?

I'm not sure why a Strike Cruiser would have one pinpoint attack much less two of them. Totally contrary to Marine naval doctrine in the wake of the events of the Horus Heresy. It is an extremely rare instance that a Strike Cruiser would have access to Lance weaponry and even then just as a single Lance (Technically Marines shouldn't have any lances on capital ships so the IN can maintain naval superiority in the event of a rogue chapter).

Anyway... no lances equals no pin point attacks so no I wouldn't like the strike cruiser gaining that level of weaponry.

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