Really, a supreme commander represents a whole bunch of possibilities of rank, not just a company commander or chapter master.

Like what? Marines just don't have many ranks. Outside sergeant, captain and chapter master the only ones mentioned are those outside the chain of command (chaplains, librarians) and nebulous rumours of staff officers. To me it looks like Marines are happy with a 1:10 ratio instead of the 1:3 used by modern day forces (that is, about 3 platoons to a company and about 3 squads to a platoon, while marines just use 10 squads to a company and 10 companies to a chapter). My guess is that as veteran forces in the extreme (centuries of warfare, on an individual basis) they're comfortable just assigning command for detachments to one of the sergeants, and overall command to one of the captains present (if there are more than one). The lower ranks step up and fill in (so veteran sergeants are in command of individual detachments while a senior brother marine runs their squad, or the company sergeant running the entire company if the captain is in command of a joint task force).

But we're getting off-topic here.

surely the supreme commander is just the captain in charge of that particular operation? the other captains just represent additional forces from other companies surely?

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Just throwing this out there - but one of the issues we generally see with trying to play marines on the ground is that Rhinos are a massive Achilles heal - ping a 6+ APC or two and then you have a whole lot of points trudging around at 15cm and no cover (speaking as an eldar player who crippled a marine army on turn one doing just that last night.) Plus generally, there isn't a lot of other armour in a marine army that needs taking out, so all your AT has fairly free reign.

With cheap armies (guard or Orks) it's acceptable to sacrifice a couple of stands when you really have to haul ass, but with marines that's just not an option.

I know you can add a single razor back or LR or two, but (in discussions after last nights game) what would really make ground pounding a viable option over 'Hawks and Landing craft would be if the upgrades were in addition to the rhinos giving some redundancy...

Incidentally - not sure if it's a typo on my ref sheet, but are chaos rhinos really 5+ armour? Extra ablative spikes...?

All maRhinos are actually 5+ save. You might have been confused because the Compendium uses Armour/CC/FF while the rulebook used CC/FF/Armour

Rhinos generally have a 5+ save Blip. I find a Land Raider makes them decently tougher and a single Razorback helps for redundancy. I normally take 2 Predator, Vindicator and a LR formation as well as 3 single LR upgraded infantry formations, so I actually have a good amount of AT targets around.

No to cheaper Landing Craft! They're very good and don't need it.

That's a feature of the game, more than a problem with Rhinos; take out One transport in a formation, and everything grinds to a halt. Wave Serpents and Devilfish are not significantly more resilient to first turn plingage than rhinos, and doing so will significantly hamper the agility of those armies.

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Oops ! Yep, my mistake - I haven't played marines recently and my opponent was playing them as 6+. Think we must have had an old ref sheet with an error !

Still think the problem stands.

My opponent was using the upgrade LR "barrier" but enough fire power will still clip one off and that's all you need. Same with RBs. I understand that with an all ground army you can afford a lot more armour, but it's the "combined" ops where marines suffer. You seem to have to go balls to the wall one way or other.

Wave serpents are reinforced and have the mobility to hide more easily. Plus eldar are supposed to be a squishy. Tau aren't an engagement army so mobility isn't such a vital issue (based on pure theory tbf - no personal experience with tau.) Both have cheaper inf to start with so can choose to loose a stand of two more easily if nec.

Even if the marines had to pay a "tax" on their upgrades to keep the rhinos it would be a subtle but effective buff to the list.

That said I realise this suggestion is untested and unlikely to find support. Just wondered if other found the same issue?

So RA4+ in space marines doesn't fix the issue with marines, but 5+RA does for eldar?

A 550 points Aspect warrior formation (8 stands, Wave serpents, Exarchs) is 'cheap', while a 325 (6 stands, rhinos, character) point Tactical formation is 'expensive'? And Tau, who are twice as effective at 15cm really don't need mobility anyway?

I'm sorry, but this seems a tad noneuclidian to me ..

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I meant cheapER per stand if you have to leave them behind; even aspects are 38ish points each, tacticals 58ish. Let's not even bother comparing guardians vs devastators. :-)

I don't really think unit by unit comparisons are usually very helpful, but sure I understand that 4+RA LRs are great, but the upgrade would add 225 to that tactical formation. Making it 650, against 550 for the fully equipped aspects - I think everyone would back the aspects every time! :-)

The key is what the upgrade adds to the unit. To the tacs, they gain great armour and some tasty firepower. They loose speed and gain no more suppression capability. The aspects more than double their speed, gain all the advantages of skimmer, more firepower, great armour and add 4 extra bodies for suppression... I can't think of anything they loose!

LR -75pnts. WS - 50pnts...

Anyway, I'm not arguing there is a "problem" with marine transport - but that this thread exists is a symptom of the fact that most people think codex are a bit sub par. Or at least they suffer from limited play styles revolving around warhounds.

As stated above, points increase on the warhounds is not a solution. They are the key to the optimal use of the list. They will either be taken anyway or get so expensive they nurf the whole army. I was looking to find a (admittedly quite radical) suggestion to both buff the whole faction a little and open up other options.

That said, I think the best option would be to leave codex as they are as a baseline and reign in some of the other factions a touch (and I say that as a biel tan player ! ;-)

I beleive the list was always envisages as the 'normal' marine method of fighting, that is air assault/orbital drop supported by whatever formations. Of that air assault is best supported by terminators and warhounds and an SC tactical formation. Add everything else to taste. Should it be able to do tank and mech as well? Or leave that to the variants?

As a radical idea, the issue of Warhounds is simply one of fast moving medium ranged MW/AT/AP with decent survivability. A Warhound requires 5 hits and 3 failed 5+RA saves to kill. Could a similar marine armour unit be put together for 275-300 points? It would be more Marine-y, less allies-y.

At present, the Predator Annihilator puts out 8x AT5+ and 4x AT4+ to 45cm, moves the same speed but lacks the MW, AP and the survivability.

The Predator Executioner in the Dark Angels list puts out 4x 60cm MW plus 8x AP4+/AT6+ at 30cm moves the same speed but lacks the survivability but is a pretty good (some say too good) replacement for a Warhound . The reason is simply that 4 of them can fire a 60cm MW shot each. A replacement doesn't have to be this good but could there be something with similar weaponry and requirements for being wiped out etc? Of course the availability with this unit would be higher so even a slightly lesser version could work out better IMO.

Not saying we will, just theorising.

Glaives. For 50 points each

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