I always found the insane amout of shots and also amount of dice in CC/FF problematic, especially combined with the toughness of the Titans.

@ Mordoten: Slow movement? With a double move you are in the centre of the table with the Reavers - if you place your objectives smartly, there's no problem at all....

Well then, then i expect AMTL lists to win most tournaments that happens around the world!

Playtesting didn't show this at all, but please feel free to field theese overpowered lists and do battlereports so we can see this crazy awesome power that you guys are talking about.

I feel this i very much like the all scouts + warlord discussion we had a while back... In theory that build is scary but in practise it A) doesn't get used and/or B) doesn't work as flawless as in theory.

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Well, AMTL lists are my true nemesis. They are easy to play (yes, easy. belive me -try eldar/tau etc, they are much harder to play!), you have a lot of void shields, RA, lot of long range MW 2+. Only a few minis to paint, they look great, so they are a popular choice =a big chance that you will find 1 or 2 lists at a tournament!
MY big problem with them is that they are an all rounder army from the beginning (long range MW for all titans), but if you fight against them, you need a specialised army to counter titans (not usual the case of a torunament army).

Last time I played against an AMTL list (2 weeks ago), there was a Warlord, 12xMW, 12x AT/AP -legate, veteran princeps for 1000p. Who can kill/negate/evade/break, etc a monster like that? who in the whole Epic universe? Altough the Warlord had 1 chance to shoot before he died by the combined efforts of multiple terminator/devastator/Orbital bombardement/drop pod attacks -combined effort of the 2/3 of a drop heavy Blood Angels army! I think the best is not to break but kill titans, starting with the baddest of them -usually a BTS. It's damn hard to even break a Warlord, it's pure luck if you can kill it. CC 2+ is a joke for me, even better than termiantors! Fro what? multiple weapon systems, god engines, blabla, i know. And what if someone is not using 2-3 formations of termies in a tournament list -or someone, who's not playing with Marines?

I should start to play with AMTL, as everyone else I think.

This is why I wasn't any more adamant in voicing my concerns - I had my gut feeling, but playtests in the forum proved differently. I played some games vs ATML, which went both ways.

Wins were always a close call though, and mostly due to my opponent focusing on killing things instead of getting objectives.

I still think that it is too easy to make a Titan a Jack-of-all-Trades.

I'd really like to see one of the top UK players pick up the list and try to make the maximum out of it. I am pretty sure, unless his opponents start fielding anti-Titan-lists, he will rule the tournaments.

cheers,

I've set up this thread for discussions on how to face off against the AMTL

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Thanks, that's a constructive idea Tim.



Taking a step back, Vaaish asked for feedback and I offered some, as did Dobsy. I don't claim to be an expert on the list, since it's one I've only really started to pay attention to now it's at the Approved stage.
That makes the list of interest to a wider audience and it's not uncommon that there is a change in the type of feedback on a list at that time. You're also likely to see the list's options used differently - This may sound like an odd question, but did anyone actually try to break it during the test process, or were they all good sports?

Will "AMTL lists win most tournaments that happen around the world"? That seems very unlikely, since the list is skewed away from take-all-comers so may lose to certain outlier lists (massed thunderhawk/teleporting terminators?), but winning all tournaments isn't really how army champions judge the balance of lists.

My feedback was:
"I had a couple test games against it recently, and found it remarkably powerful against standard, non-tailored lists. The potential firepower is frankly phenomonal. If you'd like feedback in advance for any future tweaks of AMTL as a tournament list, without going in to specifics my advice would be look towards turn some of the dials down before up."

That's my honest opinion and I think it's a fair comment.

To get into specifics I'd have to do a couple more games and dig through the list and maybe even run it myself a couple of times to see how far I can push it with the list's menu-based armament system. I don't mind doing so if it would be helpful and would be more than happy to keep any suggestions constructive.

There might be room for a little more open-mindedness on both sides of the debate.
After all, I think everyone wants the same thing - a great, well balanced titan list that can be played with any opponent and proudly claim its wins through planning, luck and generalship.

Like I said, it matters not when you can double about and hit things hiding away.


I played cat and mouse most of the game - My BTS was hidden until the Reaver with the Plasma destructor doubled forward/obliquely and vaporised more than half the formation in the first activation.... I even gave up a round of shooting with a hammerhead formation to try and survive till the next turn - that didn't work either as the Warhounds just ran around to get angle of fire. There's only so many places on a table that your army can hide!

I don't buy the "you can hide" answer because eventually you can't and losing a fighting formation per shooting activation is incredibly crippling and un-fun.


Of course it's suicidal, so I didn't. At some point though you have to break cover to apply shooting. Then you are ****ed. Skimmer does jack when the titan is closer to the terrain than you are. I grind my teeth when people bring up skimmer as an ability that gives you an advantage. Against new players maybe. Not against experienced players. Skimmer is not what it used to be and is situational.

Agreed! This will be illuminating. I'm sure to learn some cool tactics!



Considering it's just been approved I don't think there's been much time to get into the tourny circuit and the largest tourny system which is in the UK is based on EpicUK not NetEA anyways so it's going to even be a while before we start seeing those.

Also I'm not sure you're intending this but your comments are incredibly snarky sounding. I'm sure that's due to the impersonal nature of the internet but we should watch how things come across. We want this to be an interesting constructive discussion. I get the impression you're taking this personally as an attack on your extensive and kick-ass help getting AMTL approved. rest assured, it is not.


Well said. This is part of the natural progression of lists and to be expected. Wider audience means that more ways of using things, often unexpectedly, are done. It is no way means somehow someone wasn't doing their job when testing.

One of the things that we need to always keep a mind on is not only is this list balanced but is it fun to play against? That's a harder question to answer and rather subjective, but still important.

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Ok I'll try to help here.



Hehe, conventionally, yes Tau are a shooty army, but at least fluff wise we are comparing two different beast once you bring giant walking robots into the mix. In the Taros campaign the Imperial forces didn't really see Tau conventional ground forces as much of a threat to the Warhounds and initially only thought that the Manta was capable of taking one out.. at least until the tigersharks managed to take a warhound down. Yes, I know fluff and all, but in a lot of ways AMTL and Tau is comparing apples to oranges. The problem we face is making the apples look like oranges without losing what makes them apples. My point is, don't get locked into thinking that Tau have to be the shootiest, there's other factors in what circumstances they ARE the shootiest.



Just a note, but the 3x MW2+ already is in the list. it's the 25 point Plasma cannon that doesn't seem to be used that much.
I did try doing a few lists with it. Usually 2x PC and a GB and I didn't really find it any better than other combinations when playing against IG or Marines.



IIRC the TLD was originally 45cm but it got a boost in the core rules to 60cm at some point. It's traditionally been an option for Scout titans and the TLD is still an option for the FW model and in 40k. Short answer, yep it's a scout weapon.




I have zero issues with upping the cost of the Hypaspists to 250 points sames as in the Skitarii list if we need to. The point of the cost drop was to subsidize the lost hardpoint on the titan when using the corvus.



Well this is the TITAN list so, yes, infantry does take a back seat. Just sayin'... We do have the skitarii list for a more infantry centered take on the AdMech forces if you're interested.

I don't want to clutter this thread with thoughts on your battle report so I'll move the rest of my post there.

@matt:
Thanks, yes that does help but if you can get the actual list used that would be even more useful. Hard to glean much detailed information without it considering the absolute bloodbath you guys are seeing. I really can't figure out a list that fields just 4 models and can shred absolutely everything in it's path especially using reavers. Reavers really aren't that tough of units to kill.

Again, having detailed information is essential here. Eldar and Tau are two of the lists I haven't had any personal experience against though in theory since things are pretty evenly matched against Marines, they should be the same against Eldar and Tau. As I said earlier, the bloodbaths are very concerning but at this point I just need more to go on since there's such a huge disparity between all of our playest data and what you and Dobbsy are saying.

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Also let us not forget that when a new list shows up on the scene it can take some time to adjust and figure out the appropriate counters in tactics and strategy. I remember the same discussion around Necrons way back when for instance but we've adjusted and in no way are they unbeatable (i think they're absolutely not an enjoyable opponent being too mono-dimensional but that's a separate isuse )

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I have a little hard time seeing how doubling gives tou acces to every angle and corner of the board. In every game i've played with th AMTL my opponents has stated out of the way for at leadt one of the battle titans every round.

So i respectfully, happily and lovingly disagree with that statement fully <3

But maybee we play with different amounts of terrain. We try to follow the suggestion that 1/3 of the board should be covered by terrain.

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aye but there's also local differences on LoS, what constitutes being "in cover" for a stand, range stretching, etc.

just because you've not personally experienced these doesn't automatically mean they're "holding it wrong", mate
(i'll counter also that just because they happen to have experienced this though automatically means that not everyone [or anyone] else has either )

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I disagree with the statement that a double move makes a titan go everywhere on the table. I think thats an overexaggeration.

Thats a very weird comment btw. We have different views on the matter and we defend thoose views. Your point is just... pointless...

The battle titans are supposed to be slow, it's their drawback together with low activation count. I seriously doubt that most of the guys complaining here has actualy had more than a couple of games against the NetEA AMTL list. I've had about 15 games (including a whole tournament) and none of them have been the deathfest that people are writing about here.

I can't speak for the EpicUK list since i've never played with it.

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Yeah it could be that or you know, think about what was actually said and extrapolate how small differences in local meta could give a highly different experience for a player, mate.

Hypothetically speaking, and not saying Dobbsy's experience is common or universal or even what I am using here:
-Local allows range stretching (formation A attacking formation B is valid as long as unit is in range, the formation as a whole is valid)
-They use based vehicles convention
-LOS is based on shortest path between from closest base edge in formation A to formation B
-Cover is based on entire unit inside border of terrain feature

So with the above I could see how an artillery or alpha strike titan could really ruin my day being able to more easily draw LOS/LOF to entire formations due to one dude out of cover or a small base edge not passing through terrain.

I've seen, talked to people, and have even played games covering the entire breadth of the above local variances I listed, and then some.

So perhaps instead of getting defensive and dismissive of someone's experiences, we try and find out some things like the above and see if there's anything to them. That's all I am stating.

It could be that there's something in his local that give a very different story and we all go, "oh interesting". Doesn't mean we have to do anything about it. It also doesn't discount that he's new to facing off against that list and his tactics simply need to come up to speed for a new approved opponent.

Or yeah... I could just not have a point.

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Yes, and i see lots of things making that statement less true. I don't see the wrong in aknowledging that. My view is based on extensive play with the list so ut's not like i've decided to just disagree to be a sourpuss (if that is a real word?).

Yes, it's interesting how some can see the list as so Overpowered. I have battle reports that show the opposite. I'd love to see a few reports that proves me wrong. As a fan of science I would gladly change my opinion about it when the evidence is presented.

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"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
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