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[NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:40 pm 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
OK restatement of theme/value proposition of the Iron Hands.
-Based on older fluff / theme from Index Astartes with forces are based on the campaign on Medusa itself fighting off the 13th Black Crusade.
-Wider and more general access to specialist Titans than most Marines due to close ties to the Mechanicum. Less flexible air assault assets during the campaign. (e.g. Titans or Flyers)
-Deliberate methodical mechanized infantry that can take a bunch of BM to the face and still not break. Drawback is that your formations are larger therefore require more mutual support than average (e.g. less forgiving)
-Reduced fast attack options for increased ability to drop pod deadly formations (you can drop pod terminators into the opponents deployment zone). Speeders are present as they are the main source of Marine MW attack and without them an armoured force would eat them for lunch. Assault marines were specifically used to launch counter attacks from the fortresses themselves (you can counter charge from the fortress afterall).
-Formations are more geared towards being an "all-comers" ability with a wider mixture of AP/AT. Drawback is that they are not as effective against homogeneous targets until you're in FF range. Deliberate choice of harder to synergize ranges/abilities for shooting attacks.
-Specialist character allowing cheap BM removal / bonus to rally. Inspiring Walkers with penalty of BM when they are lost.

Very good, makes it easier to focus our efforts :)
To follow this here some suggestions on future testing/changes:
1. Try out and make the mobile fortress an intresting unit.
2. Drop the special Devastators and revert back to the standard ones.
3. Put the Dread talon in the Detatchment section.
4. Put the veteran officer in charge of the clan :wah

What do you think?

Edit: I have way to much spare time at work right now so feel free to ignore my posts as they might be my way of killing time for me :)

(Looked some more at the Wolfs and they get their Supreme Commander for 50p, ours costs 100p, why? Both lists is very similar, a unit gets the skill nothing more.)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Sun Oct 19, 2014 8:01 pm 
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Have someone been updating this list without telling us and without changing the version? ;)
(My 0.6 list is a little different then the one in the first post)

JZ do you have a plan on what to do before we move on to the development status? To me it would be nice to be able to push it there and then leave it for a while.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:42 pm 
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hahahah. I will admit there's plenty of things that are on the front burners (Menstruating Cherubs and Space Puppies plus the current Guard/Eldar AC issue) and stuff that's being actively seasoned (Hawk Lords) versus this which has been quietly simmering on the small burner ;)

I can tell you something that I need some very specific conformation on is the triple AML Reaver titan. I'm thinking that is coming out with a too good bit of synergy in the list but I need another person to give some feedback because I could be totally smoking crack here :). I am thinking we should choose a different load out provided that is the case. A fresh pair of eyes would be interesting. If not then we're probably good.

If we're thinking we're actually OK on the above then let's push it forward then to dev to get wider inputs.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 6:58 pm 
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Just looked at the list and had a quick question (sorry if answered elsewhere in thread)

Looks like you can't take drop pods on the dread assault talon, is that correct?
Would that be deemed too powerful since they are a core formation?
Iron warriors can take pods for their dread formation but then that isn't core, i just like the idea of podding dread in.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:19 pm 
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That was the idea. That's a whole bunch of MW pod fest for a core formation.
I'd love another look at that in a test game if you've got the time and see if it holds up still. The ability to garrison a formation and pod another in T1 seems open to abuse.

Basically the list is
Pros:
-closer AdMech ties so multiple titan variants
-large difficult to break clans with captain character (minimum 18bm to break with Leader rally bonus)
-dreads, dreads, and inspiring dreads! >:D
-funky rarer weapons in devestators

Neutral:
-pure astartes so Storm Talon fighters (tbolt model counts-as just fine)
-fluff based razorback variant available, otherwise no special non-code toys

Cons:
-larger more expensive formations
-reliance on planetfall podding over air assault leads to less flexibility for deployment
-fixation on FF over crossfire, shooting
-SC has limited unit selection usually the BTS formation also tend to be put directly in harms way
-obsessively generalist formations make them schizophrenic harder to synergize weapons (nasty short range disrupt coupled with land range AT only makes hard to use well)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:30 pm 
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Fair enough. One other option would be to add a support 'drop-dreads' detachment. Similar to how death guard can't take pods on their core inf retinue, but can buy a drop retinue as support (or could in old NEtEA DG at least, steve's revision might have changed that).

jimmyzimms wrote:
I'd love another look at that in a test game if you've got the time and see if it holds up still.

Wanna vassal about a bit with it? (or testing your other lists in general)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:30 pm 
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yeah sound great (on all the above). always up to get my ass kicked by people that can actually play :D

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Mon Oct 20, 2014 7:38 pm 
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BTW: Uven, et.al.

We agreed the older formation Heavy Infantry was superfluous in it's last incarnation by simply reducing the size of the Clan. I'm starting to deel we threw that baby out with the bath water and missed the real point of it as being the equivalent of the high intensity mechanized force for the IH. We're also failing a bit in showcasing their fluffy man-crush they have on the razorback as an assault transport in the list structure itself. So I've been thinking (a dangerous thing ;) )...

what if it made the return but the focus on the formation was the integrated termie character (the Veteran Sargent from the original IA list) with a razorback. No podding allowed. By collapsing them all into the Clan removed the size issue and the need to balance the Core vs Detachment needs that was a central drawback/con/minus/nerf to the list.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:30 am 
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Question: Great Council Retinue – 'Can only be applied to a Morlock Veteran or Venerable Dreadnought stand.' 'Morlock Veteran' is not a unit in the list. Does this just mean morlock? or a morlock with veteran office upgrade already applied? or something else?

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:36 am 
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additional idea: could the ven dread be made a replacement for a regular dread (and then reduced to 50pt to counterbalance that?) The replacement mechanic would mean you could carry a dread talon + ven dread in a thawk. At present you can't do that as the minimum formation would be 5 dreads (10 transport slots)

On the drop-dread formation i mentioned above, should probably be a restricted formation not a detachment. That way if you try to spam drop dreads you're stuck for other allies. Can also make it have reduced upgrade flexibility ( only ven dread/characters as upgrades?)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 11:22 am 
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Nice to see some fresh ideas :)

JZ: Will look in to the list a little more before I comment but you are probobly right. A single big family was nice in threory though :) I think we need to tone down some of the different options somehow...

Just a thought on the dropping dreads. Will it be that good to be able to drop core dread formations? In my mind they are not that good, so if someone wants to spam dreads be my guest.

I really like the idea of a Venerable dread as a character instead of a unit, not sure of how it plays with other lists using the venerable...
The "Morlock" and "Morlock veteran" is a typo it means the same thing.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 1:35 pm 
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looked at this list for the first time as a complement to my 40K scale Iron Hands...much as I would like drop pods for the dreads, i figured u could also load 4 into a thunderhawk as an air assault formation...not as great as termies but still gives u the option of getting AC/PF dreads into engagements without them having to march to the fight...

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:01 pm 
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Well now I have looked some more...
Sometimes it feels like I just want to change things just for the fun of it, so as usual feel free to ignore stuff :)

How about if we rethink the clan again... Make the clan something like 4 tactical + 2 dev + veteran, no more free picking just upgrades. Make a special Great Council Retinue with about 2 morlock + 2 tactical + 2 rev + supreme commander. Reintroduce the heavy infantry as before bit with the new stats. Perhaps add tacticals as an upgrade if you feel that is needed.

Make the dread talon + transport so it can drop pod.

Perhaps make the venerable a character with inspiring, fearless and extra attack...

Add a special rule concerning the Razorbacks in line with this... "Razorbacks may be taken as transports instead of rhinos at a cost of 25 points each. Every formation that takes transports must take at least one razorback" or perhaps even better/simpler "Every third rhino in a formation may be substituten with a razorback for free"

I also still dislike the 20 cm range on the graviton gun. I think de should stick with 15 cm or 30...

Besides that, amazing job with the list. Now the units is in the right order and it looks good :)

Will try out the Reaver in my next battle but it looks ok to me.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 21, 2014 9:25 pm 
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yes Yes YES

Let me cogitate for a few hours aka go drink and come back with a preview

I feel we're really close like do a few sanity games and go for Development :)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA] Iron Hands (Experimental)
PostPosted: Tue Oct 28, 2014 12:34 am 
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OK cogitation involved like 4 days of killing my liver (also the remnants of Typhoon Anna hitting here were to be contended with)

Uven-Peep your email and check in with Mordoten too if he's around to get another set of eyes. There's a present for you in that draft you've been trying to get worked in :)

Apoc-Same with you, mate.

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