Sorry for the misunderstanding -I tried to say, that I have opinion, but not experience with the SG, as I don't playtest them -and probably I won't, because they just dont fit in my plans! but never say never!

Also I'm agree that the DC 2+ is ok. I always used them that way, and they worked well. TBolts 2+ is a bigger problem sometimes

Played a game today and I played it as 1+. DC at 2+ would have sucked hard as they might have sat around doing nothing. Just keep it as 1+. It's already a 300 point formation for 4 or 6 units. It's also easier to remember and the Chaplain helps guide them IMO. If you degrade them with 2+ make them cheaper. 300 on a must-take formation that may not act is kind of annoying.

2+ is always a problem in this game Pati!

Batrep to come.

Very good points regarding the Death Company, Dobbsy - completely agree that at their cost, they should be 1+ init. Furthermore, I am a great believer in simplicity within lists. I appreciate the arguments for 2+ init, but you're right. Let's go with 1+ for the Death Company.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

All this bemoaning a 300+pt formation activating on a 2+ and potentially sitting around doing nothing. Welcome to the Imperial Guard!

*shakes fist*

Exactly, these are the Adeptus Astartes not IG!

Batrep here:
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28345

We've been talking about a lot of exotic units like Sanguinary Guard, etc, but let's go back to look at some of the more basic lists that can be made with all of the new changes. Here's an example of a pretty standard list with a couple of BA toys, that takes advantage of the 35cm move of the Rhino chassis vehicles -

ASSAULT [225]
4 Assault Units, Chaplain

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Landspeeder

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Landspeeder

PREDATOR [275]
4 Annihilator

PREDATOR [275]
4 Baal

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastators
Rhinos

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastators
Rhinos

Death Company [300]
4 Assault Death Company, Chaplain

THUNDERHAWK [200]

TACTICAL [400]
6 Tacticals, Hunter, Stormraven

THUNDERBOLT SQUADRON [175]
2 Thunderbolt Fighters

SCOUT [250]
4 Scouts, 2x Stormraven

12 activations - something that would have been almost impossible with the Blood Angels before. I think this is a pretty powerful list.

The Scout formation with two Stormravens stands out to me as a unit that could be pretty powerful for its low cost of 250. Thoughts?

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

could be (albeit unlikely). I'd like to see a 3 scout formation shenanigans list tried out, especially against Eldar.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

BTW the SR in the 2.4 list are 75 points each not 50.... Another typo?

Yes, that's already been brought to my attention. Another typo.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Ok, I've updated the 2.4 list! It is hopefully typo free!!!! Please let me know if you catch anything. I also removed the Infernus Predator

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Played another game vs. Volrath's Iron Warriors today. Here is the list I used.

ASSAULT [225]
4 Assault Units, Chaplain

LAND SPEEDER [200]
5 Landspeeder

BIKE [200]
5 Bike Unit

THUNDERHAWK [200]

DEATH COMPANY [300]
Chaplain, Jump Packs

PREDATOR [275]
4 Baal

PREDATOR [275]
4 Annihilator

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastators

DEVASTATOR [250]
4 Devastators

SCOUT [250]
4 Scouts, 2x Stormraven

SANGUINARY GUARD [575]
6 Sanguinary Guard, 2 Assault, 1 Stormraven

He had an Ordinatus, an Oblit formation, a couple of Decimators, a Retinue, a Land Raider Company, a Vindicator Company, a Predator Company and a Defiler Pack

I set his objectives up on my right flank. My objectives were on my left flank. I deployed heavy right, in the hopes of getting him to commit his forces to that flank.

Turn 1, I pressed towards the center of the board on the right flank, hoping to get him to commit even more heavily to that flank. The plan was to move back over to my left flank on turn two and go for Defend the Flag and They Shall Not Pass objectives, and possibly BTS with a Thunderhawk assault if the opportunity presented itself.

Unfortunately, Volrath didn't take the bait. While he did resist heavily on the right flank, he also had the foresight to dedicate some small formations toward my objectives on the left flank. In Turn 1 he sent a Retinue at my objectives on the left, and I was forced to Thunderhawk assault them with the Death Company and Assault Marines instead of going after his Ordinatus (BTS).

The final result was that I ended up having to fight on two fronts, which Space Marines never have the manpower to do, and I ended up getting picked apart.

Although the score was only 1-0 at the end of Turn 3, I conceded the match as I could not realistically hope to win or even draw in Turn 4.

Thoughts:

1. I really like how the Blood Angel list is shaping up. Playing with Space Marines is always playing Epic on hard mode, I feel. But I don't feel like I'm going into every match with one hand tied behind my back like I used to with this list. I feel like I have a shot to win even against a very tough army like Iron Warriors if I play well. In this match, I took a big gamble on a role that Space Marines in general are ill-suited for, and things didn't work out.

2. Either Thunderhawk or Planetfall the Sanguinary Guard in or leave them at home. I tried running them "on foot" this game simply as an experiment, and it went pretty much how I thought it might. They never got close enough to assault. They absorbed three shots from the IW Ordinatus like champs, but they did finally break in Turn 3 when a Decimator pie plated them with that nasty MW blast. Without Planetfall or a Thunderhawk, they are simply a VERY expensive objective grabber. Not worth the points.

3. The Scout / Stormraven unit wasn't as impressive as I thought it might be. At the end of the day, it's just two Stormravens and 4 Scouts. They didn't do much. Granted, I only had the one unit. Could be more annoying with 3 or 4 of them on the table moving 35cm per move with scout, I suppose. But, on the other hand, that's not much different than Scouts in Lucifer engine Rhinos. My suspicion is that this unit has little potential for abuse and is priced appropriately. Would like to see more playtests from others.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

OK finished T2-3 from that earlier game (viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28311&p=540293)
somewhat less worth as we've moved versions on me but still has some info.

Long and short: no worries from me about Raven Spam though I'd still love someone to abuse tons of scouts in them to confirm.

_________________
He's a lawyer and a super-villian. That's like having a shark with a bazooka!

-I HAVE NO POINT
-Penal Legion-Fan list
-Help me make Whitescars not suck!

I got two games in on Saturday. Took a thumping. Dice revolt, don't think I made more than 2 saves all day. First game was against knights and the second speed freaks. Knights give me fits. The 2nd game, was the first ever against speed freaks. Holy steaming monkey balls! There are hundreds of stands.

This is the list.

Lessons learned. Baal Predators detachments should be selected in pairs need to be upgraded. Being the enemy's target of priority. They get picked on and broken in short order.
Assault detachments upgrading to 8 seemed waste full. I ran both an 8 and 6 stand detachments. The end results in engage actions were not worth the points.
Death Company. Animals, unlashed! Anything they run into was gone. I took walking DC with the hope that the rhinos would keep them in the fight. They were too slow in the first game and got caught out of position in the second. They need jump packs to remain tactical flexible. Next time I am taking two detachments of DC!
The termie sledge hammer is a straight up shooter. The Vulcan dreads scare the shit out of people think about assaulting the detachment. But the short range makes it difficult to keep them gainful employed. With the Vulcans I will cut the Chaplain next time. Storm Ravens rule. (I left my redeemers at home and play normal land raiders)
Bike detachment with speeder upgrade never worked for me. I couldn't master it. This combo I'll try out a few more times.

_________________
mattie
http://maashes.blogspot.com/

Hey, thanks for the input! I somehow missed this post - oh, I know - I was on vacation.

Agree with your points about the assault formations and the Death Company. Unfortunately, you can only take one formation of DC!

Interesting Terminator formation there. It looks good, but I wonder about the dreadnoughts reducing the mobility of the unit? How did that work out for you?

You mentioned that Baals should be upgraded - any suggestions?

Thank you!!

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Way too late to the game I can see. I'm ok with whatever happens but a thought I had went along the lines of being able to upgrade the Supreme Commander/Captains much like you can upgrade a Daemon Prince in the Black Legion lists. You can essentially upgrade your upgrades (Supreme commander/captains) to include the SG in their stand. Essentially replacing the original unit with the new and improved profile of the SG. Give them 3armor/3CC/4FF stats and make +2 MW attack AW, keep jump packs, fearless, frenzied while adding inspiring, leader, Supreme Commander/Captains. Limit to just Tacticals and assault marines (maybe devastators) formations. Definitely not scouts and DC. Cost to upgrade SG possibly 100 points for included Captain or 150 points for included Supreme Commander (like daemon prince). Keep Honor the chapter, but remove the BTS rule and keep the BM rule, like AML and Eldar's Avatar.

Rationales:
angelus bolt gun= 4+FF
death mask= inspiring
commander and SG= extra 2MW attacks

Again I'm down with whatever, but this makes more sense to me as they aren't going to deploy all of their most elite on one huge suicide mission. Instead they are strategically placed where they would be most needed. They get to where the fighting is thickest, inspire morale, while having a whole formation to support them in the process. So call me a genius or burn me for being a heretic!


Oh, and was there a reason that the DC tacticals don't have bolters, or are they actually more just assault marines without jump packs? I assume the latter but just wanted to inquire.