I see it that they move faster and are more agile than Land Raider. They put out firepower similar to a Predator.

LR = 75ea, Pred = 62.5ea, so a 35cm speed skimmer transport with decent 60cm AT ability and planetfall for 62.5 points is a fair place for this vehicle.

I'm sorry, but I have to correct you, here. They simply do not put out firepower similar to a Predator. Not even close. A formation of four Annihilators puts out 12 AT shots per turn. A formation of four Stormravens puts out 8 AT shots once per game and afterward puts out a couple of crummy 30cm AP shots. Preds and StormRavens aren't comparable in terms of firepower.

Not sure where the comparison to a Land Raider comes in. Can you explain? The StormRaven is obviously far less durable, and the Land Raider better armed. Again, four LRs will put out 8 AT shots per turn, rather than just once per game.

While I value your input on what you think the point cost should be, my own playtesting and Pati's playtesting haven't convinced me that they warrant a greater cost. If anyone here would like to break the list by running a StormRaven heavy army, and you can document that such a list may be overpowered with empirical evidence, I will certainly consider raising the cost.

Or, if in spite of actual playtests to this point documenting the contrary, an overwhelming number of people still feel that Stormravens are underpriced, I'll consider raising the cost. I don't really have a dog in this fight. As I said, I don't intend to use them competitively even at their current cost.

Up to you!

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I'll try and look at this after ITB in the beginning of October.

Then it'll be back to Squats and maybe Knights.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

That would be great. I'm truly not trying to be contrarian or difficult. I'm just not seeing them being worth a lot more than what they are costed at the moment. But I am open to the idea that I am wrong. However, I'd like to have some solid evidence before making changes. As I've stated before, a major challenge with getting this list right is simple lack of sample size as far as playtests.

For my part, I wish I could get more games in.

Or, as I said, if people really feel strongly about it, I can put it to a vote.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I will definitely try a stormraven heavy list as I was inspired to do a conversion that I'm going to cast up.

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http://brokenuniverse1978.blogspot.co.uk

Well the list that I'll be trying is:

Assault + Chaplain & 3 Stormraven
Death Company (Assault Marines + Chaplain) & 2 Dreadnoughts + 4 Stormraven (BTS)
Scouts & 2 Stormraven
Scouts & 2 Stormraven
Stormraven
Stormraven
Land Speeder
Land Speeder
Strike Cruiser
Thunderbolts
Thunderbolts

I'll probably have to proxy my Stormravens though, unless you make 19 Tom and then I'll borrow yours.

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Cool. Take that list against armor heavy Steel Legion and let me know how you fare. I'm eager to see how all this goes.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Might have to be Iron Warriors, but we can try

_________________
_________________
www.epic-uk.co.uk - home of the UK Epic tournament scene
NetEA NetERC Xenos Lists Chair
NetEA Ork + Feral Ork + Speed Freak Champion

Cool. Iron Warriors is a pretty tough matchup for Blood Angels (I know from experience with Volrath! ), especially if they go armor heavy. Should give us some useful insights.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Fair enough, I was assuming 4 missile shots per turn for two turns would be similar (not the same) as opposed to dumping the load immediately. Also Predators aren't 35cm skimmers, don't planetfall or transport assault troops. I still feel 62.5 each is still a fair price for all that. Like I said, they're armed transports not flying tanks which is what people seem to want them to be.


There is no comparison - other than a points cost benchmark. LRs are better and thus cost 75 points so the SR should be lower in points but I'm not sure the abilities of the SR put it at a cheaper cost than the Predator.


Well I'm confused. I'm not arguing for a greater cost. I'm saying they're Ok where they are. I think 250 for 4 is where they should be at for now. You are, as the subchamp, able to change them to 200 or whatever you feel is necessary. Not sure how many people will be happy to see it though....

If you feel they need the old firepower back put it back in and keep the cost the same.

In the end, DWWFY.


Well then by that logic why not remove them altogether and save the hassle of trying to balance them? Save everyone the time and effort. Devil's advocate here - Are they totally necessary to include in the list other than for fluff purposes? I'd rather see streamlined testing than drawn out testing because of one troublesome unit.

I think there has been some kind of misunderstanding. I do not plan to, nor have I ever planned, to reduce the formation cost back down to 200. I personally don't think that is necessarily underpriced for the unit in a vacuum, but I can understand concerns about spammability at that price point, and think 50 points is a fair price for the activation.

It sounds like we're on the same page, then. 50 as a unit upgrade, 250 for a formation of 4, no more tweaks to the stats. Sounds like the matter is settled.

I think we've had much ado about nothing, here.

Edit: How did this kerfuffle even come about, anyway? As far as I've been concerned, the matter of the SR was settled. I'd like more data, but it isn't strictly necessary at this point. All I've got left on my plate is to test the Sanguinary Guard, and then I think we submit the list for final approval.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Yep plus the 18 batreps required ... I think there's been some already though.

Yes. The 18 batreps are part of the final approval process, I am aware. I think it's best to do 18 of them once the list is completely finalized. Which it should be, once I get a couple of games in with the SG.

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Batrep BA vs Sautekh Necrons
viewtopic.php?f=84&t=28276&p=537851#p537851

Feedback:

Baal Preds are a nice unit. Make the opponent have to think when they are nearby or planning an engagement.

Large Assault formations hurt you if you hit but can die in a FF situation quite easily. 8 Assaults were wiped out for only 2 losses in this game's FF engagement...

The addition of Assault units to Tacticals is actually a nice addition but detracts from the speed bonus of the 35cm Rhinos.

Thank you!!!! Super useful and super helpful. Appreciate your insights on the the Baal Preds. How do you feel about them at 275 points?

Completely agree about the assault formations. Overall, I've been underwhelmed by their performance. Any ideas how to make them more useful? Or is it simply a function of CC not being as effective as FF in EA? Big assault formations are iconic for the Blood Angels. If possible, I'd like to have some kind of incentive for their use other than mere fluff.

It looks like you took a pretty bad drubbing. What would you attribute that to? Poor dice? Poor decisions? Any deficiencies in the list?

_________________
Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists