So talking about weapons:

How should effect the stats change form approved AMTL other list's titan allies?

It would be Disrupt for the AML, and two more shots for GB. So it effects Reaver and Warlord.

Huh? We're not talking about the Gatling Blaster,just the Avenger cannon

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Ahh in retrospect so it is. I suggest we keep this one focused on the avenger cannon (and appropriate rename) simply for the fact that otherwise we'll be cross talking and all over the place (as usual )

However lets not lose Koshi's points above as they're worth discussing and start a thread specific for that?

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GB, yes, Apoc Launcher, no. We decided AMTL uses different warhead hence apocalypse launcher instead of rocket launcher like on the standard titans so no changes were necessary there.

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-Vaaish

Wanrning long post [rant mode on]

Umm, I am very concerned about the Nephilim fighter stats and costs recently published in the DA, which includes stats for the Avenger mega-bolter.
These are These are already seen as OTT and current suggestion is to reduce this to 2x A/c for 250-300, but that is still far too powerfull IMO!

By comparison, the E-UK stats do not mention Avenger Mega-bolter. Their stats are

The main issue here is that both of these are showing signs of 'power creep'. The Eldar aircraft are supposed to be the best, yet their stats are matched or exceeded by both the above and while the Nightwing armour is better, that is only true for the approach - when disengaging, jinking means all aircraft effectively have the same armour.

1. As others have commented, 3x a/c in a formation is very resilient and should be avoided if possible. at ~100 per a/c this still makes the formation 200-225 for two a/c.
2. Invulnerable save is not really appropriate IMO, as it is better than RA in this particular situation.
3. All the weapons should be "Fixed Forward arc". Only the Orks get all-round fire (and that is inappropriate IMHO as it makes them the most agile aircraft in the game - but that is another topic altogether).
4. The range of the Twin Heavy Bolter should be 15cm (as per Thawk wing-mounted weapons), not 30cm.
5. Either the Nephilim aircraft should be classed as a fighter-bomber (given the number of weapons carried) or the number of weapons should be reduced. Since these are supposed to be Fighters, I suggest that the rockets or 'Nissiles' be dropped altogether.
6. If the rockets / 'Nissiles' are kept, I strongly suggest adopting the E-UK stats making them an anti-armour weapon only.
7. The "avenger Mega-Bolter" is yet another example of GW 40K stats being ramped up to appeal to their target audience / kids and IMO the stats should be greatly reduced or the weapon just ignored completely; 2x AP3+/AT5+ at 30cm is totally overpowered as far as E:A aircraft weapon stats are concerned.
   
   Given it is a 'Bolter' perhaps 30cm AP4+/AT6+ *might* be more appropriate since this is better against ground targets than the twin heavy bolter (15cm AP4+). I suggest that this is not given an AA stat since this is apparently a weapon for ground-targets.

If you adopt these suggestions, then the stats would either be

1. Nephilim fighter
   Aircraft . . Fighter . . 6+ . . n/a . . n/a
   Twin Heavy Bolter . . . . . 15cm . . . AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
   and Lascannon or Avenger mega-bolter***
   
   225 for two aircraft
   
   
2. Nephilim fighter
   Aircraft . . Fighter bomber . . 6+ . . n/a . . n/a
   Twin Heavy Bolter . . . . . 15cm . . . AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
   Missiles . . . . . . . . . . . . . 30cm . . . AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc
   and Lascannon or Avenger mega-bolter***
   
   225 for two aircraft

***The alternate weapon stats would be

• Lascannon . . . . . . . . . . . 30cm . . . . AT5+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
• Avenger Mega-Bolter . . . .30cm . . . . AP4+/AT6+ Fixed Forward Arc

I'd like to see
Nephilim
Fighter bomber 6+
2x Twin Heavy Bolter 15cm AP4+/AA5+ Fixed Forward Arc
Missiles 30cm AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc, Single Shot could be 2x
Avenger mega-bolter 30cm AP4+/AT4+ Fixed Forward Arc

I think that's plenty strong for an air support flyer. Let's be honest, the damn thing (along with the Avenger aircraft) are grim-darked versions of the A-10 in spacccccceee. You're absolutely spot on that the Avenger cannon is for tank busting, not AA. If we need more missile from play testing then give them Nx attacks (I reallllly doubt more than a single strike is needed-fly on, shoot some armor formation to shit, fly off).

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The weapon systems are supposed to be:
twin HB mounted either side of the nose
6 blacksword missiles mounted on hard points under the wings
twin lascannon in the nose, which can be swapped for the avenger

Overall I think one of the problems with the nephilim is that the stats don't exactly match the fluff. For example wikia describes its primary role as an interceptor, and the primary purpose of the blacksword missiles as anti air and light vehicles. The (twin) lascannon is supposed to be the standard armament, for anti-air duties. The Avenger is supposed to be more ground attack.

Yet 40K statwise as far as I can tell, all its weapons can hit AA (including the Avenger mega bolter) but it's better at attacking ground targets.

So which do we go with? Firstly I think we can't really represent all three weapons with AA, as then it'd have 3 AA weapon systems. I think it's reasonable for it to have 2x 5+ AA attacks and in general it would be good to aim for similar stats to the thunderbolt, in formations of 2. That leaves us to choose the weapon system:
a) the AMB loadout, which would mean giving the missiles AA5+ but would require some sort of resolution to the much more powerful AMB stats on other aircraft
b) the AA lascannon loadout, which probably means both downgrading the lascannon to non-twin-linked (since AA4+ is to be avoided IMO), and removing the AA from the missiles



BTW I like the one shot idea, and they should clearly all be fixed forward weapons. I also agree the HB should be range 15cm.

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As requested, I have cross posted the salient parts of the Nephilim fighter here.

To be fair, we *have* been discussing the Avenger Mega-Bolter, but this needs to be done in the context of the unit and formation carrying the weapon, especially as the stats presented were so OTT as an E:A aircraft weapon.

I'm confused, wasn't this thread created explicitly to discuss the avenger stats, how is that supposed to happen without discussing the context (ie the unit that the weapon is bolted to)?

I don't care where the discussion happens, if not here then I think the people who are here and can speak for the other lists that have this weapon should post in the other thread.

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There are two (or three) different things here:

1. The Avenger Strike Fighter (ground attack aircraft used by AdMech and a unit the Sisters have a soft spot for)
2. The Avenger Bolt Cannon (half power Vulcan Megabolter strapped to the Avenger and I believe Fire Raptor)
3. The Avenger Mega-bolter ( the bizarre stat version of the Avenger Bolt Cannon found on the Nephilim)

From what I can gather here, most of the problem is with the total nephilim load out more so than the ABC. I've used the AdMech avenger multiple times and I've never seen it perform much better than the Thunderbolt. The issue also seems to be keyed to the assumption that eldar fighters must always be the best fighters in the game.

For my part, I've never seen the ABC perform in any way that's OTT or better than existing AC. I don't think that the AdMech platform or the weapon system itself is a problem so the issue here for me is this:

1. Is the Nephilim Avenger Mega-bolter the same as the Avenger Bolt Cannon? (it does seem highly likely though the stats are suspect)

If it is, then it should use the existing stats. The rest of the problem is for the DA list to solve based on that to create a unit that's not OTT for the Nephilim. If it's not, then there's nothing to discuss and it's for the DA list to work out the load out and stats for the Nephilim.

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-Vaaish

Well wasn't the avenger bolt cannon statted as 2x AP5+/AT5+. Did you change it to AP3+/AT5+ and that is what you have tested?

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I don't remember off hand, but I'm pretty sure the stats are the same in the sisters list where I got it from. But, yes, AP3+/AT5+ is what's been tested.

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-Vaaish

I went looking for it last night at the 5/5 stat was what I found, followed by a conversation between you and GlynG about increasing it to match the VMB. I couldn't actually find it in the lists (eg sisters are in the compendium but also other lists seem to use it but dont have the stats for it).

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