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Archived [NetEA]Dark Angels 2.1

 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:20 am 
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atension wrote:
Just curious what proxies are people using for assault terminators?

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:47 am 
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AoC, I think that the best place to start with this unit is go with the EUK stats as a base. It's had use in the EUK DA list so perhaps start with what's already been tried to ease the pain of having to adjust things too much.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 8:35 am 
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9 AA shots from a formation which can CAP is way overpowered IMO, especially with AA4+ which has been discussed to death and generally considered to be a slippery slope

I'd remove the AA shot from the lascannon, as JZ says, the only aircraft with lascannon AA are bombers (better power source, heavier weapon mounts, ability to have turrets)

I'll also suggest starting with the EUK stats and tweaking from there, but as a person resident in the UK, I'm showing an obvious bias and my opinion should be discounted ;)

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 9:19 am 
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I agree with the above statement.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:06 am 
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+1 from me as well regarding the AA.

That said, the E-UK stats are not far off your own (though IMHO they are also a tad OTT or slightly undercosted :) ) :-
Quote:
    DARK ANGEL RAVENWING NEPHILIM FIGHTER
    Type: Aircraft --- Speed: Fighter --- Armour: 6+ --- CC: n/a --- FF: n/a

    Lascannon .............. 30cm AT5+/AA5+ ...... Fixed Forward Arc
    Twin Heavy Bolter ... 30cm AP4+/AA5+ ...... Fixed Forward Arc
    Underwing Rockets .. 30cm AT4+ ............... Fixed Forward Arc

    Notes: Invulnerable save

    Formation:
    Two Ravenwing Nephilim Fighters .............. 200


Given the above stats I would suggest the formation should actually be 2x a/c for 225, or if you prefer to retain your formation size then 3x a/c for 350 would be a good starting point (on the premise that this can be reduced if necessary).


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 10:50 am 
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Like I've mentioned previosuly, I think the Heavy Bolter could also be reduced to 15cm like the Thunderhawk's to help tone down the firepower at 30cm. I also think we should stick with 2 aircraft.


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 11:03 am 
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Agreed Dobbsy on the bolter range - if only to halt the evident power creep.

Using the E-UK stats and this reduction in range, it may be worth trying out formations of 3x fighters for 350 as that is the equivalent cost of two TBolt formations, whilst being slightly less powerfull and less flexible. That said, you can do a lot with 350 points which would make this formation rare, falling in line with what others have suggested is in the 'fluff' about the rarity of DA air-power.

However, I am equally happy with 2x A/c for 225.

(Edited to remove the confusion caused by cross-reference to the E-UK stats)


Last edited by Ginger on Wed Jul 23, 2014 1:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:05 pm 
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I think if you're going to give it 3 shots, you should not also be putting them in formations of 3. The more dice you roll, the larger the "upper end" of possible numbers of hits and also the tighter the average. They become more reliable at killing transports.

Overall, as statted, they average 4.5 hits on intercept/CAP, which more often than not will kill a vampire raider outright. Compare that to an average of 2 hits for a Tbolt formation which has to be quite lucky to do it (~25%). The formation is also better than Night Wings at taking down these transports (whether Eldar, Ork or SM), even after factoring in the specialised anti-RA-transport Lance shots.

AA weapons are much less strict in their stats, with less uniformity between units, so you have a lot of latitude with the stats of a TL lascannon IMO. No way it needs to be AA4+.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:56 pm 
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Starting with the E-UK stats, the proposed reduction to 15 cm on the Bolters would bring the fighters into range of A/c defensive AA, and thus makes them slightly less powerfull. It also makes them slightly less powerfull than Eldar Nightwings in that respect.

**With these stats** 3x A/c just might be OK.

(At 4+ per shot including the +1 for CAP / intercept, they would dish out an average of 3x hits more reliably, and against a Vampire this results in an average of 15/9 damage, or just shy of the two damage needed to kill the transport outright.)

The stats currently proposed by AoC give 3x shots of 3+, 4+ and 5+ (including the +1 for CAP etc). This gives the proposed formation of 2x A/c an average of 3 hits which is also more flexible given the 30cm range and so definitely OTT already. Consequently a formation of 3x A/c would be a nightmare - though this was not quite what I was proposing as I was already discounting the 3x AA ;)

(I have amended the offending post)


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Wed Jul 23, 2014 2:15 pm 
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Ginger wrote:
The stats currently proposed by AoC give 3x shots of 3+, 4+ and 5+ (including the +1 for CAP etc). This gives the proposed formation of 2x A/c an average of 3 hits which is also more flexible given the 30cm range and so definitely OTT already. Consequently a formation of 3x A/c would be a nightmare - though this was not quite what I was proposing as I was already discounting the 3x AA ;)
Yes the stats in the OP is what I was replying to.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 2:39 am 
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jimmyzimms wrote:
Plenty of aircraft have different weapons from 40k in Epic. Hell, the poster child of that is the Thunderbolt with a multilaser instead of dual twin-autocannons.

Do a Nephilim Laser Cannon at AA5+ or swap it for multilaser is my suggestion.

I wouldn't say plenty do, their stats differ from ground units but the Air units share the same. T-Bolt is an oddity since the plane existed in Epic first, blame FW for the messed up translation.

Not doing a made up stat line like "Nephilim Laser" or "Nephilim Weapons Load"

And people wonder why I wasn't "thrilled" with adding a brand new flyer.... :{[]

Dobbsy wrote:
AoC, I think that the best place to start with this unit is go with the EUK stats as a base. It's had use in the EUK DA list so perhaps start with what's already been tried to ease the pain of having to adjust things too much.

I looked over the EUK stats when deciding what to give the Nephilim, just because EUK did that way, doesn't mean its right way nor what is right for NetEA.

kyussinchains wrote:
I'd remove the AA shot from the lascannon, as JZ says, the only aircraft with lascannon AA are bombers (better power source, heavier weapon mounts, ability to have turrets)

I'll also suggest starting with the EUK stats and tweaking from there, but as a person resident in the UK, I'm showing an obvious bias and my opinion should be discounted ;)

Considering its Main weapons is the Twin Lascannon OR the Mega Bolter, I think it has the power source and capability for it.

So noted, opinion discounted! lol ;D ;)

Ginger wrote:
That said, the E-UK stats are not far off your own (though IMHO they are also a tad OTT or slightly undercosted :)


I'm glad someone notice that. Dropped the 5+ Armour to the 6+ of the EUK, Ignored Invulnerable Save and took the same Twin Heavy Bolter. I gave it the right Twin Lascannon and then gave it worse Missiles since the EUK seem OTT.


Points heard and understood, however doesn't mean I agree with them all. Again I'm focusing on new weapons rather then changing existing stat lines. I want a larger formation to discourage heavy use of the fighters.

Either way I'm not adding in the Fighter Formation in till I update the list with the new creation plan which will also limit their use. However, I'm not updating the list in till I see at least three Battle Reports. This list has seen LOTS of paper changes WITHOUT lots of actually testing. With that said I still want the fighters ready to go, the below are updated stats based on the current feedback.




Ravenwing Air Support Formation
3 Nephilim Jetfighters 300


Ravenwing Nephilim Jetfighter
Type Speed Armour CC FF
Aircraft Fighter 6+ n/a n/a

Air Support Configuration
Twin Lascannon: 30cm AT4+/AA4+ FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP4+/AA5+ FxF
Blacksword Missiles: 30cm: AT5+ FxF

Ground Support Configuration
Avenger Mega-Bolter: 30cm AP4+/AT6+/AA6+ FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter: 30cm AP4+/AA5+ FxF
Blacksword Missiles: 30cm AT5+ FxF

Notes: Choose your weapons load-out (Squadron must match).

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 4:49 am 
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Angel_of_Caliban wrote:
And people wonder why I wasn't "thrilled" with adding a brand new flyer.... :{[]

Hence the "make them similar to a Thunderbolt" path that's been mentioned.... but, ce la vie :)

I would still reduce them to two aircraft for reasons mentioned previously. 3xAA3+ & 3x AA4+ on intercept...? If you want to hamper their use, tie them to a "if you buy a Ravenwing formation...." situation. They are Ravenwing units aren't they?


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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 7:04 am 
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Still way too powerfull... Best interceptors in the game now.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 8:57 am 
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AA4+ on an interceptor is just not cricket.... ESPECIALLY at 30cm range, this has been discussed over and over before and the general consensus is that if we start giving AA4+ to interceptors it becomes normal and more and more flyers get them and we have to deal with power creep

if nightwings don't get AA4+, and in the background they are meant to be peerless fighters, orders of magnitude more potent than anything 'lesser races' can come up with, then nobody should

I suggest the following stats:

Twin Lascannon 30cm AT4+ FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ FxF
Blacksword Missiles 30cm AT5+/AA5+ FxF

2 for 225 pts

makes it a solid interceptor and pretty potent ground attack craft, coupled with being int1+

I'd definitely use them with those stats, much more and you're overpowering it for the sake of fluff, as I said earlier, GW massively overguns their models, especially newer releases, which leads to problems when translating them into epic

Quote:
Considering its Main weapons is the Twin Lascannon OR the Mega Bolter, I think it has the power source and capability for it.

So noted, opinion discounted! lol ;D ;)


think of it thusly, the fighter can carry twin lascannons, intended as tankbusters/whatever, it has a power source which can charge them for a big blast every few seconds, making it good at ground attack where the targets are relatively static, but less suitable in dogfights/air battles.... a bomber with them would likely be able to carry a heavier power supply meaning increased rate of fire and therefore effectiveness as an AA weapon, it can also mount the weapon in a turret with wider movement, independent of the trajectory of the aircraft AND carry a dedicated gunner, freeing the pilot up to concentrate on flying....

the point has been made repeatedly, by several people, that the same weapon, mounted on different vehicles, will behave differently:

miket wrote:
As a real world example, and as 40k is basically World War II IN SPACE, one of the most widely used guns in WW II was the German FLaK88. It was initially a (very good) anti air gun, and was mounted as such on a platform with unobstructed viewlines and at a high elevation. It was found to also be one of the few guns the Germans had that could penetrate the heavier Russian tanks though, and so ended up being the primary armament of the German Ferdinand and Jagpanther tank destroyers.

To suggest that those two tank destroyers should have an AA attack would be ludicrous however, even though they use basically the same gun as the standard German AA unit. This is because the same gun was mounted and deployed differently for a different purpose, just like Heavy Bolters in an AA mount are different from one carried by an infantry, or even one mounted in a sponson.

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 Post subject: Re: [NetEA]Dark Angels
PostPosted: Thu Jul 24, 2014 10:35 am 
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kyussinchains wrote:
Twin Lascannon 30cm AT4+ FxF
Twin Heavy Bolter 30cm AP4+/AA5+ FxF
Blacksword Missiles 30cm AT5+/AA5+ FxF

2 for 225 pts


I think I'd be tempted to lower the Heavy Bolters to 15cm range, in line with the Thunderhawk turret armament. Puts a bit of a quandary into the hands of the interceptors too, one at 30cm or two shots at 15cm, which is something I rather like. If they had a 15cm range heavy bolter, would a 3-squad then still be too much?

Otherwise, I like the justification for not including the Lascannon in the AA profile. As often illogical as it is to equate sense with fluff, it is a rational argument.


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