yeah, wraithguard are super amazeballs good, having them at int1+ is ridiculous

for the terminator comparison suggested earlier, wraithguard are just as resilient, 50% more numerous, fearless and capable of clipping engagements, they can also consolidate 15cm and be part of a triple retain

but then cross-list comparisons are typically flawed

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

I know

I don't think we should change the +1 rule. Accidents can happen, Spiritseers may die, just remember of the Sniper rule It's another question, that very few people use units with that ability..

The Wraithguard needs that first acitvation (just remeber, SM armies are the most popular, with SR 5, so they won the Initiative more easily), to put a BM to a 350p unit, which will activate at 3+..

I already mentioned before, that a WG unit is AT LEAST 550/650 points, with the much needed transport! So don't think that spirit warhost are only 6 units of WG, wiht a move of 15cm.. Think of a 650p 3+ formation -Eldar are not Orks

Eldar are up next for me and I'd like this list to include the Wraithknight personally. Plus it gives people the option to use their Knight Models

_________________
Current EA Armies:
Steel Legion (6k+)
Orks (6k+)
Iron Warriors (Currently Building)
Daemons

My Commission Website: http://hulksmashstudios.webs.com
My Languishing Blog that will soon host some Epic stuff: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com

Eldar titan list are better in Knights, I think!

I'm against the whole Wraithknight concept -Iyanden is strong enough as it is now, and Wraithknight is just another economical trick of GW, to sell more expensive 40k minis, so we should not follow their way every time!

How about making the Wraithguard formation 350 points without character and able to add one for +25?
Also sticking to 2+ Initative without any spec combo. (They are walking deads afterall, not superfitness aspect warriors. )

For a side note: If I'm correct in the EUK Iyanden the Wraithguard formation is 375 with character and simple 2+ INT, no spec combo added.

_________________
Epic Commander of the Prassium Invasion Troops 214th Regiment
***Action is our prayer. Victory is our offering.***

First, that's like saying Revenants are better in a Titan list. But they are still in standard Eldar lists. Secondly the Wraith Knight is just an extension of the Eldar Knight concept which root was......EPIC. Crazy money grabbers taking things from Epic and putting them into 40k. Those Cads!

I didn't say we should follow it everytime. You don't see me asking for CC Wraithguard, Harlequins, or the alternative flyers. Just something that has existed in Epic before and now exists in a codex being given a spot in the alternative list that makes the most sense....

_________________
Current EA Armies:
Steel Legion (6k+)
Orks (6k+)
Iron Warriors (Currently Building)
Daemons

My Commission Website: http://hulksmashstudios.webs.com
My Languishing Blog that will soon host some Epic stuff: http://hulksmash-homeplace.blogspot.com

Personally I think that the unit should include a character. In the background stories they are usually lead by a Spiritseer or a Warlock. Btw what would the character do?

The increase in points is an alternative but it would be nice if we first sorted out the initiative thing.
It's been like this for a couple of years now, is it really that broken?
Everywhere else there is a big demand on battlereports before things change.
I have played some games and can agree that the wraithguards is powerful but the army usually suffers from a low activation count and with some good tactics they can be made very slow.

/Uven

Basic eldar units are lead by farseers/spiritseers, so it can't be the question.

I already mentioned, that it's not good to talk about only 1 unit -you have to think about it, as the BASIC part of an army. From this point of view, the whole army is slow/or has some really expensive units +300p for Wave Serpents/+200p for a Vampire.

So, for a basic unit, which costs 650/550p -without a supreme commander! -is way too much, and you have to buy at least 2, to avoid the Living Few restrictions. 1200p for 2 Wraithguard units with SC in Vampires is strong, but it's the half of your army at the same time! Not yet mentioned the Wraithlords..

Please, try out the army list first, then make offers about the 1+/2+ initiative of the Wraithguards! I tried it many times before, it was not that overpowered -but always overactivated, sometimes with Space Marines! Just think about the list as a WHOLE, not only unit by unit!

I've faced Iyanden several times and really think they need the Initiative Nerf for the Wraithguards.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Having played with Iyanden several times I think having Wraithguard at Init 3+ with a +1 for a Wraithseer or Spiritseer would be too extreme. Leaving a very expensive formation with one sniper or barrage hit on the unit with the character sitting on a 4,5,6 to even activate. That seems an excessive nerf.

I continue to advocate dropping the Farsight skill from the Spiritseer (and just maybe the Wraithseer). Claim that they are too busy guiding the Wraithguard in their formation to justify seeing the future so much beyond the formation. This would STOP an effective +1 initiative on a retain move. It would still leave the formation vulnerable to losing the stand with the seer. They would continue to have a basic initiative of 2+ as a formation (with an automatic character based upgrade). Notice that this would leave them the same as wraithguard attached to regular guardian formation on at retain move.

Unlike Terminators the Wraithguard cannot: teleport, do not benefit from ATSKNF, are not a core unit, do not have the living few restriction. But then they are pretty good I'll happily admit.

Perhaps another "nerf" might be to strengthen the living few rule to restrict the total number of "living" formations to match the number of Wraithguard formations. However in this case I think any wraithlord formations should be included in the count of "dead" formations. Because the wraithguard are so expensive it is hard to buy many supporting units anyway so this tends to less of a restriction than you might imaging.

Overall views seem to be pretty entrenched about Iyanden. What would actually be required to get such a list to "approved"? I loved (and still do) the old Doom of the Eldar board game. And have a Wraithguard horde that is happy to deploy for battle (play-test or otherwise). And there are several committed Epic gamers around who may well co-operate, . . .

Spiritseers should not loose the capability to call in the Avatar

Spiritseers can be dead very soon, if your enemy is aware, what type of army he will fight -snipers are a very good solution, so I'm totall against the nerfing! Expensive unit, without farsight in a list , with a special skill to retain twice. not clever

To clarify my standpoint, i agree with this completly. Init 3+ is not a good idea. Just take away the +1 I rule from Spiritseers/Wraithseers and enforce a strickter "living few" rule.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

Things would get more simplier to have them bone 2+ initative and no special notes here and there.

Besides snipers are not that dangerous since not many players took them and if they do, they still need to get in range, actually roll a successful hit then the Eldar player not saving on a 5++.
Same goes for barrage, it can be altered by precautios placement to defend important units within a formation. (I know sometimes it doesn't work, but that stands for every army not just Eldar...)

As a whole army perspective, the Living Few seems a little annoying restriction, its just simply forces the player to take more tanks and planes. So far what I have built in theory, this rule denied me to take just one more "living" formation. (in a 3000 point build, took 2 spirit formation and wished to take 3 living one.) And instead go for something else.

Also I'm not really convinced by that spirit warhost "MUST" take any kind of transport and it's GG no re if they recklessly opt to go on foot.
Why?
To quote my mate: "Just think about the list as a WHOLE, not only unit by unit!"
The more activation an army has as a WHOLE, the better... a lot.

Anyway here is my teory hammer. (Ye I admit I only faced against Eldar multiple times but havent played as one... currently I don't have opponents with spare time to play at all )

Spirit warrior + wraith lord + sc 625
Spirit warrior 350
guardian + wave serpent 350
ranger (4) 100
war walker 150
night spinner 175
swords 250
swords 250
engine 250
nightwing 300
vampire 200
Avatar 0

EDIT: In this case there is still option to deploy the spirit warhost on ground, and use vampire as a bomber, or perhaps snip out small formations with assault and fire support.
Engine can be storm serpent but not necessary, I would use it as scorpion, and if I face titans, go with cobra.
Swords give AA bubble of course.
The 200 points spent on wave serpent for guardians (another super effective FF and fast formation) is the one wished to be a third living formation in a form of windriders.

_________________
Epic Commander of the Prassium Invasion Troops 214th Regiment
***Action is our prayer. Victory is our offering.***

Infantry in an engagement heavy army, like the eldar, never just walk around in the field! why not? because eldar doesn't have any real long range firepower, so they need to get into FF/CC as soon as possible

So, the correct question for an Eldar commander, is how to get into that important engagement, before the opponent shoots you to pieces That's why the transports are so crucial -making your army very expensive.

I like this one. Clean and simple. Loosing the Avatar (unless you include some guardians) would not be a problem for me as I always forget to place him on the board before we roll initiative