Ok then Im with you but according to the armylist the marinens can't fire from the plattform only firefight and the plasmagun is AT 5+/ AP 5+ not MW ☺

Damnit damnit damnit

Was thinking meltagun but copied the plasma gun statline

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will try and find some more of your mistakes tomorrow

Just a quick note that .5 was corrected in OP. The Apoc Missile Launcher (aka Rocket Launcher) DID gain Disrupt for the final go-for-approved AMTL list which I thought had been removed. We've moved in-line with that version. Uvenlord's fantastic proofreading on plasma when meant melti-melta has been corrected as well.

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Hey JZ,

Been a while since I've gotten back to this and just checking in on the last changes before I take it for a spin again.

Looking at this new devastator I'm not sure how effective it will be with such a mix match of weapon systems.. I think either the lascannon or multimelta will be under used - resulting in them not being a worthwhile addition - similar to how a lot of the salamanders close range units don't get added to the shooting units... anyhow - what about the IH devs had an option like razorbacks or predators work, in that they became:

Iron Hands devastator
Inf 15cm A: 4+ CC: 5+ FF: 4+
Bolters (15cm) (small arms)
2x Lascannon 45cm AT5+
OR
2x Multimelta 15cm MW5+
Multimelta (15cm) (small arms) confirs MW to FF attack

So you can tailor them to be either close MW firepower or long range AT. both loose the 3+ FF of standard devs due to specialist weaponry (note salamander devs with 2x MM are 4+FF w/ MW).

I just don't think the 1 of each weapon makes for a useful unit but happy to be proven wrong.

Started my Mobile fortress scratch build tonight

I'm down to try her out but from here on out I want to have a couple of play tests behind changes. We're pretty past armchair design I tend to like the way they play together but exact for the point they push you to get into assault range to get your money's worth though they are not useless at range at the same time. Also remember that in no case are devastators not running around with tactical support (either 2 or 4 stands depending on formation) so there's an extra dimension to this to consider. Admittedly they might just play to my personal preferences and be a bit crap and my local hides that fact. On the other hand that's getting pretty close to the Sallies structure and almost to the point IH could be played under their lists, no?

tl;dr

Ok lets do some playtests with them as they are and the same matchup but with the changes above

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I've tried the multimelta heavy inf in two games and think they are good but it makes the unit play a totally different role. Before with two AT5+ shots they moved into a building and started shooting vehicles, now with the MW attack they move in close to assault. Although I think the MW variant is far better they does not feel very Iron Hands to me, I get a more reptile feel when I'm using them...

Also if we were to keep the Multimelta we should drop the Lascannon (and perhaps replace it with the normal missile launcher) I'm not into making it an "OR" option, in that case we should make a new entry called CC heavies or something...

Not all related but:
why does the Morlock upgrade come with 0-1 landraider?

The multimelta stat should read
Multimelta 15cm MW5+
AND (15cm) (small arms) MW see wraithguards for example.

/uven

This is where I differ of opinion. Sitting back and shooting long distance doesn't seem very Iron Handsy. They like to get handsy after all. So far in the HH stories they seem to advance under fire without breaking (flesh is weak after all) and let loose at close range which to me means a FF optimized force

I'm less enthused about the specific use of the MM as a weapon in particular vs any strong but shorter ranged weapon coupled with something reach out (the generalist never again without an appropriate weapons philosophy). I had batted around the idea for something exotic (Conversion or Graviton guns for instance) which you and Orton IIRC threw out a whiles back but went with the MM instead as I didn't want to start up some hypothetical debate on the forums. Perhaps we should revisit that concept again? They're quite technical adepts and even have the AdMech on the great council so some less common weapons are certainly in the realm of possibility for them.


I can live with a Missile + MM Devestators. I can live with a LasCannon and something exotic Devestators as well. Any combination of the above works too.


It's the PLUS TRANSPORT for the unit other wise you couldn't more than a single in a mechanized force.
Giving away Land Raiders felt over the top.

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I can live with Multimeltas for now so lets try them out a little more?
Sorry, but the question was why you only get 1 landraider. It would be nice to be able to transport both morlocks

Ahhhhh was looking at the Clan option, not the upgrade. Yeah that should be 0-2

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Ignore - double post

Is the Land raider comment still necessary now as you have the option to take as many LR and razorback as you need under assault transport?

Also acknowledge your points on the devastators, they'll take some getting used to and another OR unit is probably not needed in the list but I'm still trying to figure out how to get the best from a unit with two weapons that don't synergise well.

Anyhow FYI, I managed a game against eldar tonight - got smashed!! I was late finishing work so my army list development took about 10min but I wanted to try the razorbacks, devs, stormtalons and alternate warhound

At 3k I ran with:

Clan + devs + 6 razorback (2 of each) + hunter
Clan + Morlock + Vet council
Dreadnoughts (4 AC/PF) + chaplain
Whirlwinds + hunter
Predators
Scouts
Thunderhawk
Storm Talons + Typhoon pods
Warhound Pack

In short I had a shocker, I made some silly mistakes as well but the Thawk was shot down on turn 1 with the Sup Comd clan on board... I constantly missed armour and to hit rolls, and in the end went down 5:0.

Now, I liked the feel of the mixed warhound pack, not OP, just something different and that extra 15cm range was helpful in catching eldar but the Inferno gun is probably a spare wheel for much of the fight so it balances IMO.

The devastators were disappointing but that was due to rolls, they missed with every shot in a round of shooting and 2 rounds of assault.. I did play them as FF MW4+ though as FF MW3+ seemed to OTT and is more powerful than the salamanders dev stand with two MM.

The las/plas razorbacks also could have done really well, and I like the ability to hit either AP or AT within 15cm but like the devastators they sucked on the night. My original plan was to try and get the mech formation within 15cm on a double and then air assault with the other clan but that never eventuated.

The dreadnoughts were poorly used, I forgot to garrison them and I couldn't find my LC/ML ones so I ran with 4 of the AC/PF ones. They achieved little and were smacked down by the avatar in turn 3.

All in all the game seemed fairly balanced, the IH went down mostly on luck, though I could have built a better list, especially as I was fairly certain I was taking on eldar.

Given I generally take a lot of Land raiders, I'm still unsure how to make the best of this list as the LR/clan formations are such a huge points sink. Given HH book 3 describes them as masters of high intensity and armoured warfare though, I feel obliged to take lots of LR and predators. Problem then is that the dreadnoughts, which are also key, have to be podded in or arrive via air, walking they just seem too slow?

I think playing eldar again I will take a strike cruiser, just to stop them hugging the base line in turn 1 and some of 2 whilst they race out, shoot you up and then duck away again.

Finally, a point on something uvenlord made earlier - I doubt the 6 strong whirlwind would be much more useful than the 4 strong unit in this list, however a 4-6 strong predator formation or the ability for the current predators and vindicators to take the "armoured support" upgrade would be very worthwhile and fairly well in theme..

Anyhow I'll shut up now as JZ probably wants me to stop throwing out more ideas and get to batrep writing.

Ouch on that thunderbird. I'd be gutted if that happened to me in fame. I've lost birds before but never with the SC onboard. Hopefully your opponent kissed you first.

I agree on the FF4+. While usually devestators are great FF monsters the addition of the short ranged but MW hitting weapons would better balance them (admitted this me listening to my gut and being an arm chair general). As is they're making me a bit uneasy still.

If we rely on the armored transports allowing the Land Raiders it means that you cannot get extra Morlocks with the SC upgrade UNLESS you pod them in. That's not bad, just a consequence to note. It does have, again, a certain elegance that seems worthwhile. Basically if you're bringing the SC in with all his closest friends, you're going to tactically drop them in right into the face of the enemy and get stuck in. I'm thinking there's more to like than not.

As a design note, the harder to synergize weapons is intentional.

I'd like to change the the MW on the Devastators to another titled weapon to free us up to tinker more freely with the unit. In addition, even when you stats things the same, names you give things color perceptions and the cognitive processes you do when discussing. I'm thinking either something relic like a volkite weaponry item or rare like conversion beamer or graviton gun. Up close and personal they're arguably nasty and fit with a first founding chapter tending to have rare goodies and the fact these guys are technically adept and would know how to keep that stuff running. I will point out that by switching to a new unique (list-wise) weapon, we're now 100% free to experiment with things like shooting is MW, FF is not (conversion beamers are stronger the farther they shoot), or the inverse of FF have MW and shooting does not (graviton gun) as the weapon quickly looses strength as range increases. I'm not categorically stating we need to change anything, just that by switching we're now free of existing MultiMelta precedence for more flexibility to balance as needed.

I'm fine with armor being 4-6 units. Not sure how that effects balance. However as activation count plummets as you max out it is probably self limiting.

As I've noted earlier, the Whirlwind is a faction wide problem. They're poorly costed/stated unit making them suboptimal. Not useless, just not worth the points (like how Land Raider phobos is probably only worth 70 points).

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Got another game in tonight, this one was better, I only lost 4:0

I took a similar list but dropped the warhounds for some more armour and some land raiders for the clans. Once again the elder out shot me and the thunderhawk again died in its first activation despite being in friendly airspace and being escorted by storm talons (we're playing u can CAP a CAP as a trial to improve bomber use). Thankfully this time it only had dreadnoughts on board...

We took some notes and photos so I will hopefully get both reports up over the weekend.

I think it's back to the drawing board for me with respect to list creation, the titans will likely become auto includes now as they seem necessary to draw fire away from the marines and project force into areas.

I am Keen to hear what stronger builds you guys have achieved with the iron hands?

I have not really found the perfect build yet but to the next fight I will bring something like this:

Clan with Morlock + Great Council 450p (rear guard)
Dread Talon + Hunter 275p (Garrison AA)
Dread Talon + Hunter 275p (Garrison AA)
Heavy Inf+Dread+Iron Father 425p (attack force)
Thunderhawk 200p (Heavy Inf)
Heavy Inf+Dread+Iron Father 425p (attack force)
Thunderhawk 200p (Heavy Inf)
Predators 250p (tankhunter)
Landspeeders 225p (support to attack force)
Warhound 275p (titan, allround)

/uven