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The best initiative for 6mm games

 Post subject: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 9:38 pm 
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Hello folks,

what is your opinion for the initiative system for generic sci fi and other 6mm games.

A commander orientied contest like my commander is legendary (manstein) and your is like Weygand and i have +3 more for my dice.

Movement and ini. IGOUGO or more dynamic?


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Tue Apr 01, 2014 10:06 pm 
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Hi!

IGOUGO is a relic best left in the past. More dynamic initiative is the way to go.

The way Future war commander and Dirtside II did it was pretty cool.

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 12:34 pm 
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I have one word ... ACTIVATION ... ;D ... like in E:A ... The side with the higher/better initiative/Leadership rating may get the fire shot/move[activation] ... but only one unit at a time ... it's more like a chess game. And IMO more realistic ... ie: the IGOUGO method, what is the other side going while the other is shooting and moving all it's units ? :eh Save for Oppertunity Fire[First Fire in the old SM1] ... the other side does nothing, but Save Rolls ... Rolling off at the beginning of each turn and adding the Initiative/Leadership rating does not always guarantee the the higher rating will win that roll off all the time ... but generally it will. The "fog-of war" is just that ... and a good rule set tries to reflect that ... IGOUGO should go the way of Dinos, Disco and muskets ... :gah

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 9:19 pm 
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How is the activation/iniative system by future commander and dirtside?

Activation sounds better for me, as a old roleplayer. But army with ini are too good. like space marine vs orks?
how it works, when i have three units and win another ini and my enemy make nothing. Is that not the same like IGOUGO?


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Wed Apr 02, 2014 11:17 pm 
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IGOUGO is one whole side moves, shoots all his units ... then the other side moves, shoots all his ... ACTIVATION, is only ONE unit of the Cdr's choice moves, shoots, then the other side activates ONE unit ... etc. ... When I say UNIT I mean 3-5 Tanks or 3-5 Artillery pieces, 8-10 Infantry stands, etc., etc. ... The Army/force with a high init, may win the roll off before each turn, ie: If SMs have a say a 4 rating and Orks say 2 ... at the beginning of each turn both Cdrs roll D6 and add his own init rating ... So generally in this case the SMs may win most roll offs ... BUT only allows him to activate 1 UNIT [3-5 Tanks or 8 Inf stands, or etc.] Then when the SM finishes the activation of that ONE UNIT ... Then the ORK activates one of his units like a Chess games. This goes back and forth unit both sides have activated all their units, and the Game Turn ends. The the Init roll off for the beginning of the next turn starts again. In some case as the game goes on, with loses, one side may end up having more remaining units to activate then the other. But the activation continues ... Say the SMs have 4 units left and the Orks 2 units left. Again it goes back and forth until all units are activated, however the SMs will have 2 more units to activate once the Ork have already activated all his units. SM - Ork, SM - Ork, ... then SM -SM ... Get it ?


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:17 am 
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mictator wrote:
How is the activation/iniative system by future commander and dirtside?

Activation sounds better for me, as a old roleplayer. But army with ini are too good. like space marine vs orks?
how it works, when i have three units and win another ini and my enemy make nothing. Is that not the same like IGOUGO?


Hi!

They are both activation systems. The DS 2 one is very simple with the player with the most units activates first and then you alternate with the other player until all formations have acted.

Future war commander has activation, but units can activate on orders from the commander (so command quality comes into play), or by the units initiative (as in reacting to threats on the battlefield).

DS 2 is simpler, but future war commander makes things like leader quality and troop quality matter for activations, so I have gravitated to that one of late. :)

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 2:51 am 
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Personally I liked the Crossfire initiative system (it wasn't 6mm though) whereby the player whose turn it was kept the initiative only so long as he didn't fail a motivation test to get his troops to act. It kept the game highly fluid but also granted an element of the unknown so your strategies didn't always pan out the way you expected - things might fall in a hole and the opponent would get to act before your plan came off. The game also used a system that was entirely ruler-less. If you could see it you could shoot it. One of the most fun games I ever played. Sadly, Flames of War came out and crushed the game even though Crossfire was much more interesting.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crossfire_(miniatures_game)


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 5:02 am 
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Of all the initiative systems I've seen, the two I like best are GW's War of the Ring and bombshell's MAYHEM.

War of the Ring is somewhat IGOUGO, but instead of doing entire turns, it alternates by phase. The active player chooses who goes first in each phase. So one player does all movement, then the other player does all movement, then all shooting from one side, the all shooting from the other side, and then all melee combats occur, in an order chosen by the active player. It's nicer than classic IGOUGO, keeping both players downtime to a minimum, but unlike many activation systems, it doesn't get wonky if the sides have disproportionate numbers of activations.

MAYHEM is a refinement of systems like DBA, which are based on activation pools, rather than strictly alternating activations. Each side gets a number of command points based on the army's leadership, which is rated by die type, with various heros and standards giving extra dice and keeping the highest roll across all dice. Each basic action has a Command point cost, and unlike most other activation pool systems, units can activate multiple times, but at a steadily increasing extra Command Point cost. With low leadership and bad rolls, you might alternate after single unit activations. With high rolls, you could move one unit multiple times or multiple units once. Unlike the Future War Commander system (which is in turn borrowed from Warmaster, I believe), there's never the "surprise" factor of failing a leadership test and ending your bound in an awkward position. You might roll poorly for points, but you know right away how much you'll be able to do in that turn.


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:07 am 
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Timeline 300 has an alternating movement phase, where the players alternate moving one formation at a time, then a simultaneous shooting and combat phase. Works pretty well, even if I do say so myself.

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:01 am 
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I am going to be the lone gunman here, and actually say that I prefer the IGoUGo. BUT, only when there is a very good turn interrupt mechanism (a la overwatch). I agree that alternating activation makes for a faster and more dynamic game, but I feel that IGoUGo is actually more tactical, as you have to judge what your opponent will do and can easily be caught wrong footed, just like 'real life'. Essentially, you are giving your squads their orders and then seeing how the enemy reacts to your plans, and counter-reacting yourself.

My least favourite is probably something like Warmaster (and I believe that FWC uses the same system) of holding the initiative while you are passing rolls. It just seems to be too much unknown and potential power in the hands of the dice, and can lead to one side just dominating an entire turn while all you can do is look on. At least with IGoUGo you are expecting it.

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 1:27 pm 
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Well I do agree, Overwatch/Oppertunity Fire/First Fire is an excellent game mechanic. And should be in any system ... However, my critism of IGOUGO vs. ACTIVATION, is as I have said, before, ... WHILE THE ENEMY IS SHOOTING/MOVING, WHAT ARE YOUR UNITS DOING ? Beside being shot at or waitiing for some target to move into your LOS and shot at him ... Which you still can do with Overwatch/Opp Fire/ etc. with Activation. If you put your unit on Overwatch/First Fire/etc. orders ... It's like an ambush in some cases. [One of my favorite tactics when I was a Grunt Cdr.] But modern combined arms mobile warfare requires fire & manuever ... That is why with individual unit activation, IMO, it is more "realistic" and almost more like "simultaneous" ... with one unit activating ... then the other side ... back and forth ... Now C/S, there was an old British Army predilection from early WWII, that you Limey's would wait 24 hrs to see what the enemy was really doing. Before reacting in force. Of course, we all know with Blitzkrieg type tactics, if you wait 24 hours. The ony thing you'll be doing is being overrun and becoming a POW ... ;) But C/S glad to see you are keeping the tradition ! ;D And remember when two units [one friendly - one enemy] run into each while manuever/moving, it's called a "Meeting Engagement" or based on the tactical/intel situation, "Movement to Contact" ... Some again based on my study of history, and actually spending over a decade in my youth as a Grunt Ldr ... I'm all for ACTIVATION. And I've said this before we added Activation to SM1 back in '90. Shortly after I became a civilain and started playing Epic ... Of course all this being said, as I always say, Do What Works For U Not Me ... ;D

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 7:23 pm 
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Hi!

I'm with L4. While I agree IGOUGO is doable with an appropriate interrupt mechanic, most mechanics I have seen in practice either are too adversarial (as in when it takes place, LOS, and such) or promote "static" play where movement is less important than firing lanes (either oeverwatch or not).

The first thing we did to SM2 in net epic was an activation mechanic to kill IGOUGO. ;)

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Thu Apr 03, 2014 8:44 pm 
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Many, many thanks to all writers.

I must read and look after your recommendations.

many greetings from Berlin


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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 9:02 am 
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Legion 4 wrote:
Well I do agree, Overwatch/Oppertunity Fire/First Fire is an excellent game mechanic. And should be in any system ... However, my critism of IGOUGO vs. ACTIVATION, is as I have said, before, ... WHILE THE ENEMY IS SHOOTING/MOVING, WHAT ARE YOUR UNITS DOING ? Beside being shot at or waitiing for some target to move into your LOS and shot at him ... Which you still can do with Overwatch/Opp Fire/ etc. with Activation. If you put your unit on Overwatch/First Fire/etc. orders ... It's like an ambush in some cases. [One of my favorite tactics when I was a Grunt Cdr.] But modern combined arms mobile warfare requires fire & manuever ... That is why with individual unit activation, IMO, it is more "realistic" and almost more like "simultaneous" ... with one unit activating ... then the other side ... back and forth ...

Now C/S, there was an old British Army predilection from early WWII, that you Limey's would wait 24 hrs to see what the enemy was really doing. Before reacting in force. Of course, we all know with Blitzkrieg type tactics, if you wait 24 hours. The ony thing you'll be doing is being overrun and becoming a POW ... ;) But C/S glad to see you are keeping the tradition !


But you could say the same thing about alternating activation - while my formation is moving and shooting, what are the rest of my army and the entirety of your army doing... standing around? The only real way around this is to go back to Spearhead and Crossfire and Kreigspiel and have a referee and written orders and actions.

On top of that, I dont find it more realistic. My formation moves and shoots, then one of your does. Then, my second formation can move and shoot as a reaction to your first formation, that was supposedly acting simultaneously?

I think that my point really is that I find IGoUGo more in line with a commanders view of the battlefield, where he needs to predict what the enemy will do and move his troops to the right places in anticipation, rather than wait and react, while the activation is more of a 'front line' view of the action.

If anything, IGoUGo should promote MORE movement and fluid unit positioning, if its done right. And, I think thats the real issue. IGoUGo is really dismissed quickly these days based on very few examples done badly. 40K is a very bad implementation of IGoUGo.... and I am struggling to think of another game that uses the system, because alternating activations has become the current vogue in gaming. Thats fine, and I have no desire to change that. I dont dislike alternating activations, but I do feel that when done well, IGoUGo is simply a better system for me. I will accept that it is less 'dynamic' as a game and more 'tactical', but that just shows my bias in what I like in games.

And, hey, nothing wrong with making sure that you know what you are doing before charging at the enemy. A thorough assessment of the situation and a solid plan are what got us through the Second World War against the Blitzkrieg, or the 'four year war' as you Americans call it. ;) :gah

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 Post subject: Re: The best initiative for 6mm games
PostPosted: Fri Apr 11, 2014 2:00 pm 
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As always, Do what works for you ... not me ... ;) It's just a game ... roll the dice ! 8) But I like the "simultaneous" nature of Activation ... To paraphrase Rommel, Montgomery was wedded to a more slow and deliberate WWI style type of warfare. Where Patton understood and displayed the dynamics of modern combined arms mobile warfare ... So C/S ... I think we, you being a Brit and me a Yank, are products of our cultural environments ... ;) :D ;D

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