I agree with KIC. My opponent was baffled by how cheap the Ark was compared how much destruction it caused. That washis only objection against the list when we played.

_________________
https://epic40ksweden.wordpress.com/

"You have a right to be offended" - Steve Hughes
"Your feelings are hurting my thoughts" - Aron Flam

What I mean is, saying X unit would be an auto-include for a list different from the list that unit is in isn't a valid argument unless X unit is also in the second list as well. The goal is to balance the units against other options within the list and against other lists as a whole.

In our case, making the Ark 250-275 points might be perfectly acceptable if it were in a steel legion list, but an AMTL list has different dynamics and constraints that make a spacecraft costing as much as a warhound too expensive to be viable. Assuming that a 3bp template is worth the same in any army is a pipe dream. You are right, list synergy can only go so far, but the first step is getting people to use a unit.

If it becomes and auto-include then the points need to be adjusted. If it remains a rare option then people are obviously find a better use for their points and it's probably not an issue. Do remember that the Ark has been slow and steady 150 points for the last several years and I can't find record of anyone using the ship until the last couple of months.



Then we start by increasing it to 200 points and seeing how it's used and what effect it has on the list, if that's not enough we move it to 225.



Not really enough to say often, however bombarding planets doesn't seem to be a rare event so there is a good probability that spacecraft support Titans or for that matter, most imperial armies fairly often.

_________________
-Vaaish

in all honesty I think it's over gunned for a non-slow&steady spaceship choice and not possible to balance by tweaking points, in a list like titans where you can't spare the points easily, there is a line where on one side, it's a no-brainer and on the other it's too expensive, I think by moving the points value around you'll simply move it to one camp or the other rather than balancing it as a unit, maybe making it unable to arrive on T1 will help, I would probably not bother with a S&S craft with initiative 2+ myself as there's a 1/6 chance of it not turning up at all (reroll notwithstanding)

I still think 175/200 points with 2x pinpoint OR 5BP bombardment is a fairer option, you keep the flexbility, and for me justifies the BFG stats in epic, Eldar ships have to pick barrage or pinpoint so they clearly have both weapon types, but not being able to use them both keeps it fairer, I don't see how that's a bad option for this ship

edit: on the internal balance thing, I agree to a point that different armies have their own synergies and whatnot, but I still think that the same points should purchase broadly the same capability from one race to another.... there is wiggle room there of course, but I think one army getting twice the firepower for the same points as another is not very good or balanced

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator

The ark does match the BFG stats pretty well IMO, balance being a whole other ball game though.

By way of comparison, the despoiler battleship for black legion has 3 pinpoints and 3bp MW barrage at SR 4, but with slow and steady, for 250 points. Honestly, when I read of the ark's accomplishments in mordoten's batrep I wasn't that overwhelmed. Besides the warhound getting fragged it killed two bases infantry with the barrage. It just as easily could have whiffed on the barrage and only stripped the warhound's voids with low D3 rolls.

At a turn 2 or 3 arrival, the barrage is pretty much guesswork. The real bang for the buck comes from the pinpoints. I agree that the pinpoints make it perfect for countering things like shadowswords that could pose real problems for the titans, making them perhaps too synergistic. There are considerations like luck, dice rolls, and whether or not the opponent takes WEs or not though. That said, 200 points seems like a better points value for testing. I don't think the one batrep is cause for bumping it more than that.

_________________
Let us playtest like the Greeks of old... You know the ones I mean

I can do with an OR choice for weapons. It does keep the correct stats and knocks back the capabilities a bit.

_________________
-Vaaish

or could have landed on 5/6 formations and vaped a couple of war engines.... I think mordoten's results were about average for it, but it has the more than outside chance of being pretty devastating with a bit of luck, and there is basically nothing you can do to defend against a spaceship except have your own spaceship to nudge its arrival back a turn.....



I think for overall balance reasons you generally have to consider averages and the degree of deviation from those averages... sure you might plonk the barrage down in empty space and kill nothing, then roll snakeeyes for the pinpoints, but at the other end of the spectrum you can easily hit and damage multiple formations with the blast and take out two war engines with good shots from the pinpoints

Although the average is somewhere between the extremes, the fact that the 'miss with everything' outcome is pretty unlikely and the 'hit with everything' outcome is pretty devastating means something needs to be done to make sure it's not a game winner more often than 'very very rarely'



sounds good to me

edit: just for a bit of anecdotal evidence, at the last EUK tournament, in one game Steve54 managed to blow up a BTS supa stompa and in another he took out a Reaver titan with his Hero cruiser's pinpoint attacks....

_________________
Just some guy

My hobby/painting threads

Army Forge List Co-ordinator