The Knight World list has had the option for Titan allies for many years with no problems but since taking over Dave has made the bizarre decision to remove titans from the list, which I think to be highly inappropriate. I wanted to run a poll and get some discussion on it as Dave has ignored my objections so far.

The background (old and new) describes the Adeptus Mechanicus having far closer links with the Knight Worlds than they have with the Imperial Guard or the Space Marines. Titans have often fought alongside Knights and were closely associated together in the SM2/Titan Legions era in particular. Knight Worlds are closely linked with a nearby Forge World and are stated to provide most of their Forge World's food and raw materials. Hence if a Knight World is attacked the AM has a direct interest in seeing it safe and much more likely to send a Titan Legion contingent to fight amongst the planetary defence force than it is to send them to support the SM or IG in one of the Imperiums many wars (the background is clear in many places that the AM are independent and cautious with their titans and primarily look out for their own interests, often refusing requests for aid from the wider Imperium). Thematically and aesthetically Titans and Knights also fit well together, being walking robots with heraldry and banners.

Apparently rather than developing one Knight World list Dave has the idea of splitting the list, to have a Knight World PDF and a separate Knight and Titan crusade list at some future point, maybe, but there's really no need. Titans would be likely to fight alongside a Knight World PDF and leaving Titans out to be added back in to some future Knights + Titans list dissatisfies players wanting this now and unnecessarily splits a limited amount of playtesting between multiple lists, lengthening the time it takes to get an approved Knights list. A single Knight World list can well represent it either defending it's planet or out on crusade (just as there's a single SM list not separate lists for ground pounder and air marines say).

If Dave isn't so keen on titans he should simply not take any in his own lists not force this restriction on the list. A good potential compromise could be to include Titan allies, but not the option for a single Warhound. They can then still be used, but not so casually or commonly, as the titan formation is more likely to be the BTS. Titans but no singleton Warhounds is the way the Space Wolves list has it too.

I think the list should allow Titans and agree to keep the Warhound singleton out (as it should be in every list except the AMTL one).

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Instead of a poll, couldn't you just have written this post in the V2 list thread?
Setting up a poll, whilst using obviously biased language in the description is not going to help come up with useful position.

I'm not commenting on the Titan allies thing as I haven't had time to read through the army list (it was only released today by the looks of it).

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I posted along these lines in the original Knight World theme thread before the list went up, questioning Dave's insistence on splitting the list and objecting to removing titans. Dave never responded to these points.

I posted again later in the same thread and suggested it would be best if Dave ran some polls to better get an idea of what the community wanted before making radical changes to the list (in particular the issues of adding infantry to the list and the removing of titans) but he ignored it.

The question and poll is simple enough. I offer my opinions and arguments below but people are free to make their own minds up and anyone (including hopefully Dave) can post their own thoughts and arguments.

On that thread you linked to the following were in favor of a titan-less PDF list:

Armiger84, E&C, Koshi, wargame_insomniac, DaR, DS, mordoten, Markco, Borka

And the following for a crusade force with titan-allies but no PDF elements:
Rastamann, PFE

Apoc didn't comment on it and you said neither.

I didn't run a poll because I would have no idea who'd be voting and if they even plan on getting in a game with the Knights.

As to why I brought the topic up in the first place, it had more to do with focusing the list thematically. I thought that was clear from the first post.

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not sure which thread this should go in now, feel free to move as you see best:

Aside from any fluff, titans don't seem so needed if the list is 2DC WEs.
Some people have been taking them though, think the DK tournament person was using a reaver? so that is now not viable.

What about a more limited choice of titans? or only battle titans (no war hounds as the list is full of fast small WEs already)?

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I'd say leave out the titans. They'd really just be a heavier war engine crutch that would pull people away from maximizing their use of Knights in the list.

A dual quake reaver would vastly outperform 3-6 Crusader/Castellans both in damage output and survivability, for example. Warhounds offer fast moving flanking power with MW and vulcans... but a squad of Lancers can and should be pretty comparable (though perhaps less durable than a pair of warhounds).

I'd rather see the Knights list be a Knights list, with levy infantry support, than become a couple of high-performing titans and some Knights taken to fill out the list.

Part of the challenge of Knights is you don't have a really reliable BTS or Blitz guard and everything's optimized to charge across the board to take territory. If you're leaving titans sitting on the Blitz, that strips out 2-3 key weaknesses (durable BTS, blitz guard, durable artillery) in one fell swoop.

Edit: Plus, if people want Titans and heavy armor, Vaaish has an Admech Armored Cav list going to satisfy that.

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I don't see titans as integral or necessary to the Knight list. While it is true that Knights fight alongside titan legions and many swear allegiance to the AdMech, I think it encourages armies that presents titan legions as supporting Knight armies when I would gather that the opposite is more likely to be true.

As it's own list, knights shouldn't have titans of any kind freely available as allies. However, at some point it wouldn't be out of place if knights appeared as either allies or limited selection units in other AdMech lists to allow for fluffy scenarios where Knight households are called upon by the AdMech to support a battle or campaign elsewhere.

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+1 definitely.

I'd posit that the easiest way to represent that would be to play a doubles game or a multi-list non-tournament/scenario game where you'd have a team made up of a Titans list and a Knights list (with one of them possibly bringing infantry to represent ground Skitarii support). I know the focus on the boards here is on designing whole-package lists that represent a single theme, but playing a larger game with smaller individual detachments often seems to me to be the easiest way to represent some of the...messier combinations. Two internally-balanced lists paired up for a doubles game is a lot easier to manage design for than trying to cram too many different toys into a single list and keep it reasonable.

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If there are Knights in the Titan Legion list and Titans in the Knight list then both are perfectly well catered for. Knights are probably much more numerous that titans so a list including 1/3 titans could very well represent the two fighting together in defence of the Forge World or out on campaign together.

The 40k wiki entry on Knight Worlds (based on the background to now) states Knight Worlds have very close links to their parent Forge World and are it's main source of food an raw materials. They're more like resource rich vassal states rather than completely separate entities. If a Knight World falls to an attacking enemy then their parent Forge World looses vast quantities of food supplies and raw materials, potentially causing mass starvation (Forge Worlds are too polluted and overpopulated to grow food of their own) and shortage of supplies for production. These are things the Forge World would take seriously, and they'd be a lot more likely to send their titans to aid the Knight World than to send them to aid any other random Imperial world being attacked which they had no stake in themselves. The 40k roleplay supplement book focussed on the AM detail their history and actions in a particular sector and it really reinforced the idea their independence from the Imperium. Time and time again they fight where AM interests are at stake, while many decades go past while they stay insular, ignoring pleas for aid from the Imperium in the sector.


I would expect titan allies to just be the limited default configuration ally titans that IG and SMs get, not fully customisable ones. I also suggested leaving one singleton Warhounds could be a good idea.

Yet Space Marines and Imperial Guard have titan allies in epic, when neither of these is closely linked to the AM and they have to petition for support that is only very occasionally given. To give one of many examples see the Badab Campaign - it's a huge campaign over an entire sector, with 13 chapters fighting (many at full chapter strength) against several rebel chapters. The war was fought for over 12 years but petitions from the Inquisition and loyalist high command only succeeded in getting titan allies for the final planetary siege of Badab itself.

Knight Worlds are closely militarily and logistically allied with Forge Worlds and the AM would be much more likely to send titans to aid them as their fate directly effects them. We don't suggest SM or IG players should have to run a doubles game with a separate SM list and titan list in order to field titan allies so nor should that be the way it is done here.


You took an existing list that had a well established theme for an number of years (walking vehicles - mainly Knights supported by sentinels and titans) and laid out two ways you had come up with to split the list. You then asked a question of which of these two people would prefer, without offering the existing theme as an option. It's not particularly scientific and issues are conflated as people may want a defensive PDF list over a crusade list yet they might want their defensive Knight PDF with titans allies too - the two are in no way contradictory.

I voted yes because I feel there should be a strong link between the knight world and the AMTL, however I'm happy for the titan presence to be limited and not customisable as it was - those models can sit on the shelf until I run an AMTL list.

Happy for the list to focus on the forces present on the knight world itself, I'm thinking "bretonnians in space" but I do argee with GlynG's point that the AMTL would be quick to come to the aid of their primary food source...

Likewose with orton.

If want to include one infantry formation then I'm ok with that.
If want to take away customisable Titans (saving that for AMTL List) then I'm Ok with that.

But I would prefer access to stock book Titans to be retained.

Cheers

James

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I opted for the PDF version from the two options presented, but I don't think banning titans is strictly necessary.

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Just bumping this to get some more votes, but so far there's certainly a clear majority wanting titans in the Knight list.