Looks like a great day!

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http://hordesofthings.blogspot.co.nz/

The 6 shots was the reason I took them, but then I was doubling usually, so they were only hitting on 5+ or 6+ depending on cover, so 12 5+ wasn't too bad. I can see it being open to abuse though - sustained fire with 4x GB would be 24x 3+ at 60cm.

Wouldn't have bothered with them when they were 4 shots previously, I would have specialised into turbo lasers or Vulcan megas instead.

Cool. Stat wise, the 6 shot performs slightly better than the tld and slightly worse than the laser blaster. Do you think you would take the GB at 5 shots? That has almost the exact same performance as the tld and vmb.

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-Vaaish

Probably, if it works out on average to be the same as the tl and the vmb then set it as that

Not strictly on topic but I thought this was the best way to reach those local(ish) to Bristol. Someone at Vanguard (where the Winter Warmer was held) is selling the following:

Battlefleet Gothic:
Sold

Epic:
Sold

PM me if you're interested.

UPDATE: 15/02/14 all sold now.

I know I'm dredging up an old thread here, but could anyone post game summaries for the other titan force using the AMTL list? I know I'm scraping here, but those three reports would give me 6 total from the bristol area which would help out considerably!

Thanks!

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-Vaaish

In case he doesn't see this, PM 'warrior of Ultramar' vaaish....

Cheers
Reedar

Ok will do, thanks!

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-Vaaish

Hey Vaaish,

I did originally see your request on the original thread, but have been too busy to write this until now, as I have a lot to say on the matter. But you PM'd anyway, so hey

OK, here goes...

AMTL list Version 3.19 (I didn't realize there was a version 3.2 until I arrived, but I promptly gained 2 extra shots with my Gatlings, so woohoo )

Warlord Class Battle Titan Trucido Proditor 950
(Turbo-Laser Destructor, Deathstrike Missile, Gatling Blaster, Plasma Destructor)

Warlord Class Battle Titan Proeliator Contego 900
(Turbo-Laser Destructor, Deathstrike Missile, Titan close Combat Weapon, Volcano Cannon)

Warlord Class Battle Titan Eternus Bellum 900
(Two Turbo-Laser Destructors, Gatling Blaster, Volcano Cannon, Legate upgrade)

Two Marauder Bombers 250

Total 3,000 points

SO...

Game 1 was unfortunately a write-off for myself and the two other players I was bringing, as we were coming up from Southampton for this tournie, and halfway along the M4, my fan belt snapped. (I almost lost my car forever, it overheated so badly.) I won't go into huge detail here, but it was hell on earth trying to find a new one and fit it, at 9am in Chippenham on a Saturday morning. We finally arrived with only 10 mins left of game 1, so ManOfKent sportedly counted us all as a draw. (TBH I came fully expecting 3 losses, so I was already on a winner )

Game 2 was against Orks. Not gonna lie, this was a while ago, and 13+ yrs of wargaming, all my games start to blur together. But what I can remember is that we had a turn 4 draw. He had my blitz (he'd kept a landa and a warband in reserve all game) and another 1 in my half, (so 2 objectives total) while I had exactly the same, as I had 1 of my Titans stood with it's base straddling the line between his blitz and another I'd deliberately placed as close as possible. (please refer to the P.P.S. at the bottom for my thoughts on this!) He had however, not actually killed any of the 3 Titans (although he had flayed my BTS to within an inch of its life) so while it was a draw, I had 1,000 vps to his 0 vps. This draw was another unexpected boost to my projected final VP score, as I now had 2

Game 3 was against Nat's Guard. This was a hard fight, my Bombers actually survived (luckily!) his CAP'ing T-Bolts, and hammered his 3 basilisks, killing 1 and breaking the others, effectively taking them out of the game (My Titans don't like barrage stuff!) My Titans themselves faced a wall of infantry and chimeras, (1 inf company and 1 mechanized) which i was forced to try and assault/firefight my way through, which half worked, because I slaughtered lots of stuff, but there were still too many to advance through. His 2 warhounds deftly avoided any return fire by virtue of more important targets (the wall of troops in my way, I needed to move forward!) so were a constant thorn. It ended with my BTS Titan standing in the same place as game 2, but his T-Bolts killed it with his last dice roll (curses!!) leaving me with sod all. I think it ended 4-0 turn 3, as he had my Blitz, BTS, two in my half, and I think linebreaker (I'm not in his half).

That concluded the tournie for me, with two draws and one loss. However, I thought I'd also impart my hard earned (and I'd like to think) 'AMTL Veteran' thoughts below.

So what do I think? Well, to give you some perspective, the last 3 Winter Warmers I've turned up with AMTL (although a range of different Titans each time) and I have to say that in my experience, just taking Battle Titans is really, really, REALLY hard to pull off any wins. There simply aren't enough formations available to you to make it viable, and anything you use to increase your activation count results in 3,000 points of enemy murdering them. As an example, my first try with this list used 1 Emperor Titan and 1 Warmonger Titan (i'm a b@stard) 1 Lysander fighter and 1 Warhound. However, people simply murdered the poor little plane and lone 'Hound turn 1, leaving me with 2 (albeit unkillable) activations. Let me tell you right now, you cannot do ANYTHING with only 2 activations.
This army list I have just used, and that i'm doing this write up for, utilized the same principle, however I took 3 warlords and then an aircraft unit, as I reasoned that unlike the 2 Emperor list, there was nothing squishy in it. Sure, I only had 4 activations again, but I figured that I'd basically always have them, as Warlords are hard to kill. I was half right. I never lost a Warlord (until turn 3 in Nat's game) so always had my moves. BUT my opponents generally went for the lets-break-his-titan option, meaning I was still at a loss unless I rallied. HOWEVER, in a generic pick-up-and-play 3k army that might be made up of, say, 8-9 Space Marine units and then a Warlord, that Warlord is far nastier than any of my 3 Warlords in this list.

Why?

Because it has 8-9 other units backing it up, that's why. A Warlord in such a list is pretty much unkillable IMO, as the army itself has generally equal formations to you, and if you start hammering the Titan, your opponent can simply marshal, and raise shields.
In my list, however, as I only had these 3 models on the board, and the objectives are literally miles away when you have a move of 15cms, my Titans were forced to always March/Double. I actually made use of/NEEDED to be broken, as it meant I would then get two further moves forward! (As i'm fearless, I don't care if I'm near an enemy.) All I had to do then was rally (Hence the SC in the list.)

The best time I had using AMTL was my second tournie, when I took 4 Reavers and a pair of T-Bolts. Reavers are fast enough to have a realistic chance of reaching objectives, and just about tough enough to survive 3k's worth of enemy. But they aren't Warlords, and can and did die, further reducing my activations.

To conclude, a list containing only Battle Titans will almost always need to keep advancing at a ferocious (and tactically unsound) pace, otherwise you'll never make the center line, let alone your objectives. To give you an example, in one of my practice games before the day, 2 of my 3 Warlords never even fired their guns all game, as they were too busy marching, charging, and moving after losing an assault. (It's quite simple for the enemy to put down a mere 2 blast markers in turn 1 before you assault.) Your opponent can easily hide away his BTS from you as you only have 3(ish) models, (which is what happened) so I was forced to go for the enemy blitz and two in their half objectives as the only things I could really try and claim. And it's easy for your opponent to simply rush something over turn 3 to contest you, as he has more activations.

In all honesty I've now done what I set out to do 3 years ago; a tournament provides me with a deadline to paint to (I'm an otherwise very lazy painter) so over these 3 lists, I have now used and therefore painted every Titan in my collection (plus some more 'Hounds) giving me 11k Legio Crucius, fully painted and based.

I've finally had my Titan fun (for now!) Expect to see the unliving metallic legions of the Agdagath Dynasty next January, striding forth to reclaim their empire...

Warrior Of Ultramar, signing off

P.S. Now that GW have finally made and released a 40k-scale Knight Paladin and Knight Errant model, (and I love it! ) I'm getting a real hankering for an Epic Knight army. Can someone please point me to any army list that contains knights, please? I've no idea where to look. Thanks

P.P.S. One unit holding two (or more) objectives at once? Slight rant here, but that's never sat well with me, ever. ONLY in Epic can you do that. Not 40k, not Fantasy, or any other game that I know of. It actively encourages you to conga-line your unit at the end turn, which looks bloody bollocks IMO. It doesn't look 'cool' at all, fast moving units spread out and try and hold the whole battlefield at once. I personally think Epic would be far more tactical in the endgame if you couldn't do that. You, reading this, how often have you seen (or done?) just that, in the name of winning a game that has looked, visually, really cool up until just that moment? It just ruins a great game of Epic IMO, right at the last. Sorry, but it really bugs me. One unit, one objective. That's how it should be.
And don't even get me started on what to do about Spacecraft, to actually bring them into the game

Thanks for reading.

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Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.

Thanks for sharing! Other than activation count when using the battle titans (I agree BTW, I think you need at least 6-7 activations to have any competitive chance.), do you have any thoughts on how the plasma performed and any of the other weapons?

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-Vaaish

Hmm, well IMO Plasma destructors seem a little underpowered to me. They are so similar to Plasma cannons you may as well just take those, seeing as how destructors are 50pts more expensive, yet only have a 15cm increased range and only 1 more shot. I really feel that something that i'm paying 75pts for on top of my other weapons should really be hitting at longer range, (like 90cms) like the quake cannon. in fact in the AMTL list all the 75pt weapons are the plasma destructor, (only range 75cms) the quake cannon (range 90cms) and the support missile (unlimited). Even the volcano cannon (range 90cms) is in the 50pt weapons section. Also, I think 5 shots would be better too, considering the points cost - cannons have 3 and are 50pts cheaper. I could take two cannons for +25pts, rather than 1 destructor, and gain two shots.
In all, I'd happily take the current destructor in the 50pt weapon section, but not in the 75 pointers. The only reason I took one here is because my Warlord with it has got an Imperator's plasma annihilator modeled onto it, to represent a big scary plasma cannon. Hence I took a destructor, (even though I think they're rubbish) to be fluffy.

The missiles are great, its quite fair to make sure they are chosen as part of the army list, so that I cannot change my missile loadout right before each game, and I like most of them. However, I never use the warp missile (ignores shields one) because only doing D3 damage points (even past the shields) seems quite underpowered to me. D3+1 would make them worth it IMO, as then if I shoot a warhound to try and knock it out with my 75pt one-shot missile, and I roll a 1, I still don't kill it but I feel i'll get my points worth. As it stands atm I'd use a deathstrike to kill a 'hound anyday, full shields or no.
And Barrage missiles I never really use either, as while 10bp is good for laying out BM's, even against an infantry horde NOT in cover, you'll kill very little, as you'll never be sustaining fire, because moving forward with an AMTL list is far more important, as I have previously outlined. Perhaps if it was made MW and slightly less BP? Hmm...
Lastly, while I have been known to use Vortex missiles before, I don't use them much, as frankly, for 25pts less I can take a quake cannon, which basically does the same thing.

Deathstrikes are spot on the money
As are the CCW's and the Volcano cannon.
Never had any problem with TLD's either, they are fine as they are, they work well.

Gatlings! I agree with what you and Jon were saying, 4 shots is just not worth it. 6 is great. 5... well... IMO 6 shots average out at 3 hits on whatever you're shooting at, which is basically the same average as a VMB or a TLD, on troops and tanks respectively. But I think it should stay at 6, as if it's 5 the average is 2.5, which, if the dice roll is in your favour, still works out at 3 hits, but if they aren't, you'll only get 2, which is the same average as the 4 shot weapon. Which we all agree, doesn't work!

My two cents.

WoU

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Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.

Cool. Any thoughts on the plasma cannon comparative to the other options?

On gatlings: the goal was boost them so there would be better competition between gatlings and TLD for battle titans. The TLD averages out to 2.64 hits with the 4 shots vs. AV while a 5 shot GB averages out slightly less at 2.5 hits. 6 shots is more in line with battle titan firepower (see triple turbolaser) but makes it slightly better than the TLD. There is also the increase in efficiency when multiple weapons are taken. ie. two of the 6 shot GB are the equivalent of three of the 4 shot ones. That means a reaver that once mounted two GB and a third weapon gets the equivalent of a 4th weapon now.

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-Vaaish

Erm, TBH I think the plasma cannon itself is pretty sound. I have kitted out several Reavers with them.

I see what you're saying about TLD averaging at 2.64, problem is that never equates in game to 2.64 dice. It equates to 3. So in practice, a Reaver mounting one TLD or one 6-shot GB is looking at 3 hits, but two TLD is basically looking at 5 or 6 hits. Two 6-shot GB's would equate to 6, Two 5-shot GB's makes 5 on average, but cannot reach that 6, meaning I would take two TLD's each time instead of two GB's because while i'm basically guaranteed 5 hits, there is a chance i'll get 6 with two TLD's.

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Worship the immortal Emperor, for without Him we are nothing.