If I threatened to do so, would you change the rules to stop me? It wouldn't take me long to paint up 3k worth of aircraft... :)
How many tournaments would I need to ruin before we plug the hole? I don't want to be the crazy general/CDC guy/Radio Controlled Plane Enthusiast from the movies who attacks America/Hospital/Field Of Radio Controlled Planes because noone would take him seriously until he does...

I am well aware of how Air Assault Oriented the marine list is. And I'm aware of how many thunderhawks are needed in order for that to be the case. It aint 15.

Just because Marines "do" air assault doesnt mean that they need or deserve unrestricted access to aircraft.
I cannot recall any, but can you show me, say, 5 lists anyone has posted in a battle report, taken to a tournament, or otherwise posted evidence of intending to use (army diary or whatever) that requires more than 33% of their points be spent on aircraft in order to "do" air assault. hell, even ones that take more than 33% aircraft? I seem to recall last time we did this dance, that there was something like 12 lists in the last two years that would have been over the restriction, and those were all because of heavy warhound use, not heavy Air Assault needs.

If some unit in IG armour, or ork masses, had an "over the top wins most every game and the only reason you havent seen it is because noone has taken it to a tournament yet" list, then I would like to believe that units ability would be curtailed. Deathstrikes are limited. Eldar aircraft are limited despite their supposed Air Superiority bent, Ork aircraft are limited, even though they "do" masses.

Marine Air Assault is an entirely reasonable thing. Spare transports to allow redundancy may even be considered a reasonable thing (though the marine transport rules suggest this should not be the case)
but are you really suggesting that some 10 thunderhawk 3k list is representative of marine lists, and is fair and fun to play against?

Moving them to the 33% section still allows 5 thunderhawks in a 3k game, which is enough to fit anyone you could need transported even if all you do is take assault marines and the thunderhawks for them (though admittedly not if you just filled up on scouts and thunderhawks, or if you left gaps inside)
Yes, it stops you from engaging in more than 5 air assaults in a single turn, and yes, if you do want to run 5 air assaults in a single turn it stops you from having spare thunderhawks in order to pick up the formations again. I'm not convinced either of those lacks sufficiently dilutes the "air assaults" theme enough to damage the marine lists supposed purview. Likewise, the arguement of "well if I take thunderhawks I wouldnt also be able to have 3 individual warhounds" is sufficiently damaging to their Air Assaultiness to be a problem either.
Restricting their access to aircraft to be the same as every other list* doesnt stop them being Air Assault Oriented, it just stops the abusive aircraft winbutton list, and coincidentally, helps discourage warhound overreliance. It doesnt hamper Air Assault, it just hampers "Air Assault+Loads Of Warhounds" and "Spam Air, Win On Tiebreaker"

Matt: the "Make Marines Better At What They Are Already Best At (Air Assault)" is already a/the solid theme in Space Wolves and to a lesser extent, Salamanders, so I don't think thats ever been a winning arguement either. :(

Incidentally, placing a restriction so that you cannot have "empty" THT's, to bring them in line with the Rhino situation would also solve the problem of my hypothetical Marine Airforce list, though less elegantly than moving Aircraft into the Aircraft section of the list would. It might also create a problem with the Land Raider formations though, since they'd be the only transport not restricted in such a way

(*not including Mossinians, who I'm still not convinced are even really a Real List, and since they lack any transport, cannot use theirs to impact on objectives in any real way, unlike marines with 4+RA who can honeybadger their way through just about anything)

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

As a TO if somebody submitted a 15 thawk list I'd tell them to submit something else, in a private game I would hope nobody would be that ridiculous.

JTG - so nobody would be affected by a change according to your figures - then no need to get so heated about an unnecessary change then?

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

!5 Thawks is ridiculous; they'd all be BTS.

13 hawks and a landing craft is the way forward!

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Epic: Hive Development Thread

6 Landing Craft
1 Thunderhawk
1 Reaver Titan

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Currently doing a plastic scenery kickstarter

Actually, the list I've referred to is 9 Thunderhawks, 1 Tactical Squad with Dreadnaught, and 5 Thunderbolt Squadrons, although it could also work as 13 Thunderhawks and 1 Tactical Squad with 2 Dreadnaughts, or a Terminator Squadron or Lander. an Alternate BTS is a bike squadron, since it's more mobile, but in general I'd prefer the survivability offered elsewhere.

Basically, the thunderhawks that arent carrying the BTS spend the first 2 turns engaging the enemy however best they can (if they think they're in a viable position to do so and survive, mount an air assault to autobreak, if not, just fly about shooting stuff) while the BTS one either plays it cautiously, or stands down if the area is too hot
Target enemy flak where possible. Thunderbolts hold back thanks to almost certainly having an activation advantage, until the enemy has committed their aircraft, or there are broken enemy units outside flak coverage, hunt them down. Cause as much damage as possible.

On turn 3, same thing, except land empty hawks in such a way as to contest enough objectives to prevent the enemy from winning the game. You should be able to do this with 2 hawks, one drops on enemy side near one of their objectives, denying TSNP and DTF, another drops on yours, denying T&H or Blitz, and if need be, deploy the BTS formation in as safe a place as possible (use the hawk they come in as a LOS blocker)
(as a sidenote, if you've gone the Terminator route, and you're pretty sure you can remove your opponents long range capabilities in time, the terminators can teleport into a far away position, freeing up your other thunderhawk for the game)
Alternately, if enough damage has been done by turn3, drop thunderhawks onto enough objectives to win on turn4, and weather a turn of enemy fire (not very likely, but possible)
Turn 4, same thing. game goes to a draw, then VP calculations will favour the army that spent most of the game immune to most of the enemy weapons. Marine player will almost certainly lose 1 or 2 thunderhawks, most likely the one committed to prevent turn3 loss and thus landed on turn4, but might even be able to pull an objective win on turn4, unlikely, but will still almost certainly win on final VP tally.

Obviously certain armies will beat it if they have a lot of AA coverage, but most "take all comers" lists wont, and you're pretty much assured to win a quite high percentage of your games.

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~Every Tool Is A Weapon, If You Hold It Right~

You avoided my question with a question BTW. So would you take them to a tournament...? Do you think people would play you again?


Just the one. No one would want to play you again for being such an ass hat.


So what are you concerned about then if no one is taking these lists? You seem to be trying to win my argument for me here....


Err, no and that's why it's not the issue you seem to be all churned up inside about for the last 5 years. Strangely, people like to play within the "spirit of the game." Again you seem to be arguing my point here....

Because 5+ is not the correct armour value and there were different versions floating around so I used the Black Templar cost model when I pulled up the lists. Given the reduction in ability I felt it reasonable that a reduction in points was fair, but apparently, I'm told, I now have an agenda to make the Marine lists Super-Uber....


Yes and then I get calls from people asking exactly why the SoI list has different stats. It's completely daft to have the same aircraft have different stats across several lists.

For the record, current THT stats allow 20 dude transport capacity + the transport capacity of the transported AVs.

The change to this greater capacity would remove the need for multiple THT formations and probably make for an easier balancing.

Even if that change was not adopted, I do not quite understand the need for multiple THTs, as both Scout formations and Devastator formations have an efficient transport with the THT without multiple THTs n the formation.

I am therefore in favour of single THT formations, whatever their stats, and balancing of the THT point cost with that in mind.

For what it's worth, and whatever the outcome is on the transport capacity and formation structure of the THT, I am otherwise in favour of the current stats (Hena) over the new ones (Glyng), as the new ones are much better in assaults, which is the main balancing issue, not the ability to place a BM through shooting.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

This is not the right thread for this, but as you bring it up, 8-10 Scout formations in any SM army can easily be included in an all comers army, and make for a very powerful component, much better than tacticals apart for BTS.

Did you try it?

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

...and...



...are not compatible.

If we are making tournament lists, then we are not counting on fair play, but ass-hatery.

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"War is not about who is right, but about who is left". - B. Russell

Not really when you put those quotes in context

Any chance of any of these supposed uber scout or flyer lists being tested by the posters repeatedly pushing yhem?

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NetEA NetERC Human Lists Chair
NetEA Chaos + Black Legion Champion

Hoo boy, it's getting hot in here.

I just wanted to add that I also feel that 100 points for these is an awfully good bargain. Perhaps too good. 150 "feels" more appropriate, but, without playtesting it's purely opinion / speculative.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists