In the Black Legion list, which is an approved list as you know, Plague Marines are one of six variants on what are essentially ground pounding power-armored marines. Chaos Marines, Havoks, Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Berserkers, and Thousand Sons. If the BL list were to be changed tomorrow so that Noise Marines and Thousand Sons were removed, and everyone was told to simply use Havoks as "counts as" Noise Marines, and Plague Marines as "counts as" Thousand Sons, how do you think that would sit with BL players? I'm guessing probably not very well.

And, again, I do not intend that to be rude at all. I'm simply illustrating - one of Undivided Chaos's strengths has always been its wide variety of tough ground-pounding marines. Are they really all that different from each other to warrant so many separate entries? If we're using the same logic that asserts that Blood Angels should not have Death Company, Assault Marines and Sanguinary Guard, then, wouldn't you agree that the answer to that question would be "no"?

If we all agree that Chaos does ground-pounding marines better than anyone else, so much so in fact that it warrants six separate entries in the Black Legion list, wouldn't we also agree that Blood Angels do fast-moving assault marines better than anyone else? Certainly enough to have a mere three entries?

Something to think about Again, please keep in mind I am saying all of this in the spirit of fun debate. No nerd rage here

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Good and valid points!

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Those varied flavoured chaos marines are all army level specific, even though they are available in one list as an upgrade they are there to represent chapter/warband level units that are available in hundreds, even thousands strong.
SG and other Veterans are usually representing only a handful of warriors there is a very big difference, also the Loyalist Marines already have their fair share of different types of marines.
To name the equivalent of the Chaos stated above, loyalist already have Tactial, Devastator, Salamander Tactical, Salamander Devs,BT Sword Brethren,DC Assault and Tactical, Grey Hunters and Long fangs, DA Devs and Tacs and so on and so on.

As with the Variant Chaos units almost all the loyalist units are representing units available in at least hundreds with the only exeption being the DC.

I understand players want to represent their favoured units in games even if it is only in a small way.

I think it would be easier to introduce a veteran upgrade character which can be added to any list needed and limited to viable formations in a list as upgrades for them only.

Example stats something along the lines of,
Character, +1 to armour value (or Inv. Save), CC Extra attack MW, Fearless.

This should represent all veterans/sternguard/vanguard/SG an so on.
Each list could allow the upgrade in a viable formation/unit only, and could be priced around 75 points per 2 units or possibly 25 points per unit.

It would also save, as has been mentioned earlier, every list claiming they need to represent bodyguard or elite specialist units because X list now has them. Then going through the process of woking out stats and testing and arguing for months on end for each list.

the approved BL list was made long before the NetEA chapter specifis lists -so it was the only list for CSM -so it needed some chance to represent the different chaos gods, and their followers -for the differen t CSm players. do not mix it with the later lists! (altough i'm still thinking about too strong Raptors vs weak BA assault marines! )

Now this is an idea I like! Pretty much every space marine chapter has their own specific elite veterans in either lists/fluff. I think this would be well worth adding to the NetEA space marine list, then going on from there.

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It would not have to be fully added to any list too, we could follow the route Epic.Fr took and have a section after an army list of alternative stats/units/formations/costs that only have to be agreed to be allowed by an opponent/Tournament Organiser, along the lines of the collectors models section in the rule book.

This section could then be added to whenever needed, to follow new releases and fluff and formations could possibly end up in some lists with feed back.

It would not have to be fully added to any list too, we could follow the route Epic.Fr took and have a section after an army list of alternative stats/units/formations/costs that only have to be agreed to be allowed by an opponent/Tournament Organiser, along the lines of the collectors models section in the rule book.

This section could then be added to whenever needed, to follow new releases and fluff and formations could possibly end up in some lists with feed back.[/quote]

Sure, that could work, too. Or they could be added to Jimmy's list of experimental formations. I guess I don't really care whether they are added to the GT official list or not. I am more concerned with gathering a consensus as to what would be fair stats and cost for them. I plan on running them in my local group whether they are GT official or not.

That said, however, I would be thrilled to see them make the cut for the official list, and I do think they deserve a spot.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

SM veterans could be done as an optional friendly game add-on, but each type of veteran would really need seperate stats, a catch all upgrade like you suggest just wouldn't be appropriate for any of the marine veterans.

The above really wouldn't be fitting for Sternguard Veterans in Epic. Sternguard are as Tacticals but with combi-bolters and fancy ammo and CC power equivalent to Assault Marines. If given their own stats epic Sternguard would be identical to a Tactical Marine stand, just with FF3+ and CC3+. They'd have regular armour and shouldn't be fearless or have CC MWs.

Sternguard Veterans would be as Assault Marines but with an EA MW. They wouldn't have any better armour or fearless though.

Those are the two types of non-Terminator Veterans that marines use. Different chapters might arm them more often with particular weapon options or use more of one type than the other but they normally use these types e.g. Salamanders Sternguard would mostly likely take the heavy flamer as their heavy weapon choice, White Scars or Raven Guard would be more likely to use more of the fast, mobile, Sternguard Veterans, but it's really not a level of detail worth varying between chapters.

Chapters normally have only around 5 Honour Guard in the whole chapter to act as the personal bodyguard of the chapter master and so they are well represented already by being the other marines on a Tactical stand with the supreme. It wouldn't make sense for a formation to have Honour Guard but not the supreme commander. If they were to be statted for epic they would have armour 3+ and CC3+ and no heavy weapon but their power weapons would require a special rule. Blood Angels equip their Sainguinary version differently but Honour Guard in other chapters carry power weapons and bolters. They would therefore need to be statted with infantry only MW, but no MW capability against vehicles. I'm not sure it's worth the bother of making optional stats for them when they'd only ever be a single stand in an army, a slightly better Tactical stand with supreme.

None of the above would be justified in having fearless.

For Sternguard Veterans i would just give Tacticals Marines +1EA for FF and for Vanguard Veterans i would give Assault Marines +1EA for CC.

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This is now straying into the territory I was hoping to avoid... discussion about Vets/Sternguard

Muahahaha! XD

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Well, I think that they are relevant to the debate insomuch as they help to illustrate how by comparison, SG are much different from any other current entry.

(Having said that, however, I really like Black Legion's suggestion about them. I also think 3+ FF for Stern and 3+ CC for Van would be appropriate, if they were in fact given their own separate entry)

However, I agree that we should stay on topic.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

So, how many published playtests of the BA list is anyone willing to post in exchange for the addition of the sanguinary guard?

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I dont feel that X number of playtests matters. If we talk long enough about it we could justify any unit addition to the game, the question for me is should we start including all new gear into every list just .. because? My feeling is, no.

How do others feel?