That'd probably just be the guys on the particular assault stand a captain was attached to.

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Yeah, that's currently how I have it. I've got a stand of little gold dudes to represent honor guard for my supreme commander. But a formation of say 4 stands of SG would be pretty awesome, and would be canonical. Dante has been known to lead Sanguinary Guard wings.

I dunno, I feel like the kid speaking up at the grown folks table here, but, I think an SG formation would be super sweet.

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Armies Played:
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Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

I'd be happy to see Sanguinary Guard in the list.

Most SM chapters only hand a handful of Honour Guard bodyguards for their Chapter Master (represented by the other marines on a Supreme Commander stand) but some of the first founding chapters have a fair bit more, the two that we have numbers for - Blood Angels and Ultramarines (the two we have precise numbers for - have 30 each, so a formation of 6 could be in order.

Epic lists don't typically do Veterans.

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Ok, but Sanguinary Guard actually have different armor and armament....

In 40k they've got 2+ armor, master crafted power weapons, and armor piercing bolters. They are basically flying terminators.

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Are they more numerous than the Death Company?
Would their function be all that different at Epic scale?

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Yes. I think a case could be made that they would have 30cm move, 3+ armor save, and EA1 MW. Sorry, I just edited my above post to illustrate the differences.

They are at least as numerous as Death Company, if not more.

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
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Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Sorry for the disjointed posts - so in 40k, here are their stats -

2+ armor save (no invulnerable save) - which I think would translate to a 3+ save in epic rather than a RA 4+
Master crafted power weapons
Angelus bolters - AP4 bolt pistols
Jump packs

Access to plasma pistols, infernus pistols, power fists.

They are basically an ultra elite assault unit.

Perhaps instead of a full formation, a squad upgrade? I still think a full formation of 4 - 6 would be canonical, but a squad upgrade would certainly make sense.

As someone relatively new to epic, I was pretty shocked to find Stormravens in the list and not Sanguinary Guard!

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Former Blood Angels Army Champion
Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
Blood Angels
Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Painting your Jumppack quipped Deathcompany golden would do the job quite well.

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Right, I disagree. The Death Company rules don't adequately represent Sanguinary Guard. They are a very distinct unit and deserve their own entry. As I said, they are basically flying terminators with slightly less resilient armor.

However, based on the couple of small forays I have made into making suggestions for NetEA lists (and other discussions I have read on this forum), people don't seem very open to new ideas or changes. I'm frankly discouraged from engaging in any discussion going forward and am inclined to keep my thoughts to myself.

I'll just come up with house rules with my local group and run them that way, I guess.

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Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

XM,

I think it's more a situation of presentation here, mate. There's a strong tendency for people trying to incorporate every sub unit into a list without asking first what need does it fill? When bringing forward incorporation of entirely new units, especially for Developmental lists, especially on the cusp of Approved status really needs more than a "I like that shiny toy". [note said in playful manner] That's where the battle reports come in to back that one up. Hell, even theorycrafting the unit would be more apt to get some better traction for you.

Also at the level of abstraction that EA pretty much runs at, especially for a D6 ruleset, the "more better guys" usually doesn't equate to an entire die roll value or unit stat. For instance, Marine Veterans really are represented as a Tactical Unit surrounding the attached CH and loaded into Land Raiders as opposed to another unit/formation.

Another aspect really is a bit of fluff. Yes actual formations of S.G. have been fielded but this is a rare event and as you even note, the Chapter Master themselves was there involved leaving the charge. Typically this is not going to be seen as a separate formation in an army list. Your point about a unit upgrade is closer to that I feel. However the above really comes into play again: That's really going to be an Assault Stand with the SC attached to it.

Now your idea about house rules/units IS a perfect place for that. In fact, getting some suggested stats and even better, a specific scenario for their use outside of the GT would be PERFECT.

hopefully that makes some sense.

edit: for the above reasons is why I started tracking the experimental units / formations hashed out on the boards. Not every possible unit needs to be in an official list but that doesn't preclude for friendly play and narrative games. See my sig for the link. You get something that works (best in another thread) then let's stick it in there. Right now I have mainly AVs but nothing precludes INF as well.

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You're right, Jimmy. I didn't mean to come off sounding childish. I appreciate your reply. It helps to clarify things. In the past I've been either ignored or dismissed out of hand.

I get it. Changing things up on a GT approved list is a big deal. And I also understand that since Epic is played from such a bird's eye view, and on the d6, units with only minor variances are often not worth differentiating.

I think I agree with you that Sanguinary Guard as a squad upgrade would be pretty cool, and perhaps more appropriate than a full formation (although I don't think a full formation is any less plausible than numerous supposedly ultra rare and precious Terminator formations taking the field). Maybe I will try a little house rule action on my own and let you guys know how it goes.

If I were to make Sanguinary Guard squad upgrade, it would look something like -

2 units 150pts
Move 30cm
3+ Armor Save
5+ FF
3+ CC
EA1 MW
Fearless
Frenzied

Do those points seem right?

I think a formation of 4 would be appropriately priced the same as Terminators - 350. In the case of the formation, however, I might add the self Planetfall or Teleport rule. Too much? Fluff-wise, Dante (a Sanguinary Guard himself) is said to be able to strike onto the battlefield unerringly.

Thanks, Jimmy.

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Epic Gamers Los Angeles Chapter
Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

They're noticeably different from Assault Marines or Death Company in that they all have master-crafted power weapons, not just the odd one here or there having a power weapon. Probably just for friendly games at this point as others are against them and it would be better to try to get the existing list finished and done, but I'd/ be fine with playing against them and think it would be fitting and cool to see them leading the army

I think it's a lot better to have them as a separate formation than upgrades though. Adding extra fearless troops to existing formations and boosting their size and survivability would be a much too good IMO and difficult to balance. Much better and fairer to have a 0-1 6 strong formation that is deadly, but very expensive and not that hard for the enemy to kill.

Make it a 0-1 formation that MUST have the Supreme Commander Upgrade (they'd only come out to play with Dante leading them). Points would need testing but I'd say start around 350-400 (450-500 including Supreme) and go for it!

No self planetfall or teleport though! They're already good enough as is, that would be getting silly. They wouldn't fly down from orbit, but be dropped by a flying Thunderhawk or similar and this is well represented by the existing air assault rules. Post back how you go with them as others might like to use them in friendly games too.

Thanks, Glyn. I completely agree that they are noticeably different from Death Company or Assault Marines (obviously)! They are a very heavy duty elite close combat unit that has no equivalent in any other army, really. I personally think they warrant their own entry in a true BA list, but, I get what's going on here.

Yes, I also agree that a formation of Sanguinary Guard should be 0-1 and MUST take Supreme Commander. It's both very canonical, and, in my eyes, a bit of a balancer because pretty much the last place I'd want my Supreme Commander to be in is in a glass hammer assault unit like this (but it's such a dumb Blood Angel thing to do!). Six stands? Mmm, yes, maybe. What about four? I don't know why, but four "feels" more right to me for such an elite unit. Of course, that would imply even more vulnerability for the Supreme Commander.

Another good balancer for them is the 3+ armor save, and this is reflective of their stats in 40k. They have 2+ artificer armor with no invulnerable save in 40k. So, this makes them quite tough vs AP fire, but they still get wiped out by the big guns.

You are right about self planetfall and teleport. They shouldn't have it. I guess they deep strike in 40k, because, as you say, they are dropping in from a Thunderhawk.

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Armies Played:
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Black Legion
Codex Marines
Imperial Fists

Also XM, don't forget that those SG on a base with a CH will also get an invulnerable save and a MW attack.

Don't feel your voice isn't heard, as we do listen, it's just that sometimes "shiny toys" get lost in the abstraction of Epic. Veterans for instance, get swallowed by the Tactical unit. Basically, never hold back an idea but be prepared for it to be bypassed, changed, circumvented or consumed within another unit type. It's nothing personal, just a facet of Epic list construction.

Personally, as Marine AC, I like out of the box options to mull over so don't stop putting them forward because your idea may not get used but it may very well stimulate an idea for another unit type for another list or the like etc.

Also from modelling perspective, I think it is cool to model what you want using current unit types than create a new unit just to use that unit. It gives your army much more flair than a bunch of stats might.

All this said, I think your stats look good and the points might be decent too. Instead of an upgrade, I could imagine a possible replacement happening within the unit if it was to go ahead. This would go towards the issue of increasing numbers etc as Glyn mentioned.